SP Flak disband to send to Panzers

[king171717]

If I disband SP Flak battalions the SP flak 10/4, 10/5 will go back to the pool and hopefully to panzer divisions? Panzers on refit for top priority of reinforcement.

My SP Flaks 10/4, 10/5 pools are drained and a few of my panzer divsions are very low on them.

I dont attach out SP flak battaltions usually. Just the mixed for the 8.8 anti air/tank gun.

[Telemecus]

Yes - but

Check from the production screen which other units use the same flak and make sure they are not on refit. Note headquarters units (including airbases) and support units are always on refit. You may find it better to reduce the maximum ToE of support units that receive them as replacements, including other Sp Flak SUs, as well. Or instead of disbanding them.

The SP flak companies have a disband date - so would it be worth just waiting for them to disband and fill up the pools for the same without spending any points?

And remember there are units you will never get back if you disband them. Are you totally sure you will not needed them years later in the game?

[Dinglir]

Alternately, just set the MaxToe to 20%. Also have a look at how many you need to disband and consider if the support units don't do better sitting at the Corps level and being sent forward to help in battles of the individual divisions of the corps.

I have often wondered about the German SP 10/4 and 10/5.

If you look at production and the ToE of units using these weapons it is clear that there is no chance of the Germans ever filling up the units needing them (certainly not in 41/42).

It seems odd to me that the Germans should create a unit Toe that they full well knew would never be filled.

[king171717]

I had them set at ToE of 75%. I think I will just set them to 20% and not use the admin points on them. I cant see them having a impact on the CV of the Panzer divisions not having them.

@dinglir ya definitelylooks like they could never fill that TOE.

Thanks guys

[Laits]

I had them set at ToE of 75%. I think I will just set them to 20% and not use the admin points on them. I cant see them having a impact on the CV of the Panzer divisions not having them.

It's not only about the CV. They will give you extra AA power within the unit. Don't forget that panzer div are frequently attacked but the soviet tac bombers.

[joelmar]

Yes, Laits is right, artillery and AA is not only about CV, and not even about destroyed and damaged units, but has a lot to do with disruption and turn arounds.

SP Flak battalions 20mm and 37mm are made to fight against smaller aircrafts: fighters, tac bombers and dive bombers. 88s are better against bigger targets, like Il-4s. And since they are already motorized, they won't siphon the truck pool to be temporarily motorized when attached to pz HQ's and units.

The German doctrine called for using AA against ground target whenever possible. The best known example is the .88s, but it was true for all AA. For the 20mm by example, they could wreck havoc on a truck column in real life... this would have to be assessed in the game.

Crackaces is the apostle of using the sdkfz 7/1 with 20mm quads against cavalry and infantry squads, which they can easily decimate with their high rate of fire and moderate anti-soft.

[eskuche]

I think assigning the SUs to panzer corps HQs, letting them drift up to Pz groups, and reassigning down every turn gets you similar effects without the AP cost.

@joelmar can you give an example of the 20 mm? My general impression so far has been that most combat casualties are from retreating and even high efficiency destructive weapons don’t really change the CV ratios that much.

[king171717]

ORIGINAL: joelmar

Yes, Laits is right, artillery and AA is not only about CV, and not even about destroyed and damaged units, but has a lot to do with disruption and turn arounds.

SP Flak battalions 20mm and 37mm are made to fight against smaller aircrafts: fighters, tac bombers and dive bombers. 88s are better against bigger targets, like Il-4s. And since they are already motorized, they won't siphon the truck pool to be temporarily motorized when attached to pz HQ's and units.

The German doctrine called for using AA against ground target whenever possible. The best known example is the .88s, but it was true for all AA. For the 20mm by example, they could wreck havoc on a truck column in real life... this would have to be assessed in the game.

Crackaces is the apostle of using the sdkfz 7/1 with 20mm quads against cavalry and infantry squads, which they can easily decimate with their high rate of fire and moderate anti-soft.

I find 88's to have the most impact on air. I started off attaching SP Flak but they werent as effective as the 88's for kills. I only use SP Flak when no mixed or heavy flak arent available to attach.

[king171717]

ORIGINAL: eskuche

I think assigning the SUs to panzer corps HQs, letting them drift up to Pz groups, and reassigning down every turn gets you similar effects without the AP cost.

@joelmar can you give an example of the 20 mm? My general impression so far has been that most combat casualties are from retreating and even high efficiency destructive weapons don’t really change the CV ratios that much.

I think there are much better support options than SP flak's.

Also support units require supply/fuel/ammo/vehicles.

Its only AP cost when u unassign it from the division.

[joelmar]

@eskuche

@joelmar can you give an example of the 20 mm? My general impression so far has been that most combat casualties are from retreating and even high efficiency destructive weapons don’t really change the CV ratios that much.

Honestly, I hadn't tested the 20mm quads myself, it's Crackaces who did and is always very adamant about that. But I just tested running 3 times the same battle at mess level 7, I attacked a stack of cavalry corps with divisions loaded with 20mm quads directly attached, and couldn't reproduce what he found, in 3 battles the quads didn't even fire one shot that I could see. But Crackaces says he has witnessed their effects many times, so I have to take his word on it.

No, SU's don't change the final ratio that much, that's not their job. They contribute to the harrassment of the enemy. But that small contribution is often the little boost that makes the difference, same for air power.

When there is a retreat, any damaged element has much more chance of being captured, so the damage that can be done during combat augments the final combat casualties after the final calculation of CV.

@king171717

I find 88's to have the most impact on air. I started off attaching SP Flak but they werent as effective as the 88's for kills. I only use SP Flak when no mixed or heavy flak arent available to attach.

Yes, that's my tendency too. But SP flak has the advantage of being motorized, so they don't require more trucks from the pool to get motorized when attached to motorized divisions and add a little CV to the division, which is a great part of their value.

But from my experience, when attaching SP flak directly to divisions, they don't contribute flak, only CV for ground attack.

[joelmar]

I just had a talk with Crackaces and it turns out that what he said about the 20mm quads against cavalry was for defensive purposes. I did another test, and it wasn't conclusive, even though there was a little more activity from the quads. I will continue testing that in my games.

But I saw that the sdkfz 10/5 are efficient against light tanks in defensive situations with their 37mm's.

[king171717]

ORIGINAL: joelmar

I just had a talk with Crackaces and it turns out that what he said about the 20mm quads against cavalry was for defensive purposes. I did another test, and it wasn't conclusive, even though there was a little more activity from the quads. I will continue testing that in my games.

But I saw that the sdkfz 10/5 are efficient against light tanks in defensive situations with their 37mm's.

Thanks for the testing

Its good to find it out!