OT: Corona virus

[Encircled]

ORIGINAL: durnedwolf

Canoerebel - yesterday was what - three pages back? Nothing in your response to Encircled mentioned or even hinted at a previous post. Next time, how about you go back, get that link, and quote it so we might-could see what you are referencing?

when I share a link from CNN in response that shows several states allowing houses of worship to stay open as "essential activity" and you counter with what you posted below... dude! The article I shared was as of April 2nd. The CNN link Encircled shared was an interview of someone leaving a church after attending worship...

I'm glad for you and all Georgians that the state of Georgia is doing such a swell job of cracking down on the virus. In my opinion, California is doing a pretty good job also.

I know people that wish to attend church regardless of the virus. I know others that say they can easily practice their faith at home until we get through this.

I appreciate your views of Nation-wide-press. I have grave concerns over our world-wide-press. But that doesn't give me leave to say what Encircled posted was inaccurate within a public forum unless I have something else to back up my claim...

Encircled is from across the pond. Both you and I are from the US but in different states. We all see the world through our own lens and many of us differ on how best to combat COVID-19.

All I'm saying is that it's bogus to put down what Encircled shared simply because you think it "might be" inaccurate. Let the guy post what he is seeing and considers relevant. Some of us really want to hear what others are seeing\feeling\thinking. We all learn better through sharing information.

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Durned Wolf, I was referring to a similar post made yesterday about Georgia which was shown to be false by the actual provisions of the Georgia ordinance. The nationwide press has been getting it wrong. I'm not sure how many states allow religious services but I don't think many places actually are even if permitted to.

Nationwide decrees or statewide decrees may not be necessary when local jurisdictions act promptly, as they mostly have in the US. They have their fingers on the pulse of what's going. As noted in here, Georgia shut down it's schools three weeks ago, ahead of England. With a few exceptions, I think our federal system has worked pretty well.

Is this made up btw?

He's the bloke in charge!

https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1246817424437108737

[Cap Mandrake]

Look, China IS unarguably at fault for failing to give prompt and accurate information in order to save the skins of CCP and save face internationally. If they failed to properly monitor wet markets or, even worse, allowed an obviously catastrophically dangerous virus to escape a research center which should have had the absolute highest levels of biocontainment, the liability is an order of magnitude higher.

It is also true the US culturally has a difficult time enforcing a strict social distancing rule and that many individuals behaved selfishly and stupidly. This is what human beings do quite naturally. Mardi Gras should have been cancelled. The beaches in Florida should have been closed. In retrospect, even the Super Bowl should have been cancelled and the NBA should have cancelled earlier but the information about transmissibility was just coming out. Idiots holding religious gatherings against orders should be prosecuted.

How did the Chicoms enforce such a strict curfew in Wuhan? With the PAP that's how (The People's Armed Police). This is a paramilitary arm of CCP. They have live ammo, mortars, artillery, machine guns. NOBODY was allowed to leave their apartment. All taxis and buses were shut down. No public transport. You go outside..you get a AK round in your face. You let your dog out...they had crews clubbing dogs to death. You needed food? You placed an order over the phone and paid and someone delivered it the next day. Somebody in the house died from Covid? You call and they pick up the body. You can't get away with anything like this is in the West.

To say the modern democracies were unprepared is an obvious "the Pope is Catholic" pronouncement. More ventilators and PE were needed. The subways should have been shut down in NY...etc. etc.

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: Encircled

ORIGINAL: durnedwolf

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Encircled, if this report is as accurate as the one posted yesterday, it's probably inaccurate.

And if there are 14 states that have done this, which would be a surprise, many or most religious groups are observing the countermeasures voluntarily.

Most places that I know of suspended meetings at least three weeks ago.

There have been a few notable exceptions (lamentably) but they are comparatively few and far between, judging from the reports I've read or heard.

Canoerebel,


"It's probably inaccurate" is a really bogus thing to say to someone when you are comparing a news-link from a fellow formite only to reports that you've read\heard... What Encircled shared was from CNN...

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/02/us/stay-at-home-order-religious-exemptions-states-coronavirus/index.html

Yup. If you watch Fox News (not saying you do btw!) then you would have a totally different view to the crisis.

You might think that going to church is still ok for example.

I read Fox news and Daily Wire and Briebart. Guess that makes me a brainwashed right winger from your perspective.

I also read CNN for entertainment and a look at how the leftists are slanting their presentation of the news.

As CR pointed out, most religious institutions have suspended group services voluntarily, regardless of whether, or not, their Governors, as our Florida Governor has done, allows them to continue to congregate.

There will always be a fringe few, under any mandated restrictions, that refuse to obey voluntary guidelines. There will even be some who defy mandatory guidelines. Using a few examples that have had the spotlight of scrutiny shined upon them by them by the media as representative of the whole is short sighted.

[Canoerebel]

Hey, Durned Wolf, Georgia is the state I'm most familiar with, so I post with what's going on here and reply with what's going on here, but I've made it clear (yesterday) that most or all states are doing the same and that all are in good faith doing what they think is best in a novel situation.

[Encircled]

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

Look, China IS unarguably at fault for failing to give prompt and accurate information in order to save the skins of CCP and save face internationally. If they failed to properly monitor wet markets or, even worse, allowed an obviously catastrophically dangerous virus to escape a research center which should have had the absolute highest levels of biocontainment, the liability is an order of magnitude higher.

It is also true the US culturally has a difficult time enforcing a strict social distancing rule and that many individuals behaved selfishly and stupidly. This is what human beings do quite naturally. Mardi Gras should have been cancelled. The beaches in Florida should have been closed. In retrospect, even the Super Bowl should have been cancelled and the NBA should have cancelled earlier but the information about transmissibility was just coming out. Idiots holding religious gatherings against orders should be prosecuted.

How did the Chicoms enforce such a strict curfew in Wuhan? With the PAP that's how (The People's Armed Police). This is a paramilitary arm of CCP. They have live ammo, mortars, artillery, machine guns. NOBODY was allowed to leave their apartment. All taxis and buses were shut down. No public transport. You go outside..you get a AK round in your face. You let your dog out...they had crews clubbing dogs to death. You needed food? You placed an order over the phone and paid and someone delivered it the next day. Somebody in the house died from Covid? You call and they pick up the body. You can't get away with anything like this is in the West.

To say the modern democracies were unprepared is an obvious "the Pope is Catholic" pronouncement. More ventilators and PE were needed. The subways should have been shut down in NY...etc. etc.

Completely agree with parts of that, but the biggest democracy in the world shut itself down overnight after only 10 deaths.

Seems pretty clear that our two nations dithered (for whatever reason) and its going to cost thousands of lives. Thats quite important.

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

Look, China IS unarguably at fault for failing to give prompt and accurate information in order to save the skins of CCP and save face internationally. If they failed to properly monitor wet markets or, even worse, allowed an obviously catastrophically dangerous virus to escape a research center which should have had the absolute highest levels of biocontainment, the liability is an order of magnitude higher.

It is also true the US culturally has a difficult time enforcing a strict social distancing rule and that many individuals behaved selfishly and stupidly. This is what human beings do quite naturally. Mardi Gras should have been cancelled. The beaches in Florida should have been closed. In retrospect, even the Super Bowl should have been cancelled and the NBA should have cancelled earlier but the information about transmissibility was just coming out. Idiots holding religious gatherings against orders should be prosecuted.

How did the Chicoms enforce such a strict curfew in Wuhan? With the PAP that's how (The People's Armed Police). This is a paramilitary arm of CCP. They have live ammo, mortars, artillery, machine guns. NOBODY was allowed to leave their apartment. All taxis and buses were shut down. No public transport. You go outside..you get a AK round in your face. You let your dog out...they had crews clubbing dogs to death. You needed food? You placed an order over the phone and paid and someone delivered it the next day. Somebody in the house died from Covid? You call and they pick up the body. You can't get away with anything like this is in the West.

To say the modern democracies were unprepared is an obvious "the Pope is Catholic" pronouncement. More ventilators and PE were needed. The subways should have been shut down in NY...etc. etc.

Those brought up in and conditioned by a police state will fall into line and obey orders from above far more readily than a nation built on the principles of individual liberty.

Americans won't go quietly into that good night.

[durnedwolf]

ORIGINAL: Encircled

Why would you say outdoor services are fine?

What medical evidence do you have to back that up?

for my 2-cents - if everyone maintains that 6+ feet of separation... But then there's the parking lot. And there needs to be some kind of bathroom service - yes?

For myself, there's nothing wrong with me reading the bible and worshiping my higher power with my family. Trying this social-distancing thing seems to be reducing the size of the bell curve and social-distancing is not just about keeping me and my family safe but also, I'm trying to keep members of my community safe.

My concern is that I can pick up the virus and spread it for several days before I even show symptoms. It would almost kill me if I knew I'd brought it home and someone in my family passed on. The same with if I knew I infected someone else and the died. I feel this social-distancingthing is not just about me but about us - all of us. It's about trying to bring the bell curve down so our medical system stands a good chance of helping those of us who really have a bad reaction to COVID-19.

[Encircled]

I read Fox news and Daily Wire and Briebart. Guess that makes me a brainwashed right winger from your perspective.

Look, if those are your sources, that is completely up to you.

But the question is, do you have a national lock down yet?

And are 14 states still refusing to ban gatherings like the one highlighted in the news report?

You, CR and CM have all told me that CNN can't be trusted (either blatantly or in other ways) but none of you have told me whether that is true or not.

[Cap Mandrake]

ORIGINAL: Encircled



Completely agree with parts of that, but the biggest democracy in the world shut itself down overnight after only 10 deaths.

Seems pretty clear that our two nations dithered (for whatever reason) and its going to cost thousands of lives. Thats quite important.

India you mean? The later a country experiences a surge the smarter they look.[:)] I'm not sure India will weather this well either. I can imagine they are having trouble with testing. Parts of India may also benefit from the possible climactic protection that seems to be active in parts of Africa.

[Encircled]

ORIGINAL: durnedwolf

ORIGINAL: Encircled

Why would you say outdoor services are fine?

What medical evidence do you have to back that up?

for my 2-cents - if everyone maintains that 6+ feet of separation... But then there's the parking lot. And there needs to be some kind of bathroom service - yes?

For myself, there's nothing wrong with me reading the bible and worshiping my higher power with my family. Trying this social-distancing thing seems to be reducing the size of the bell curve and social-distancing is not just about keeping me and my family safe but also, I'm trying to keep members of my community safe.

My concern is that I can pick up the virus and spread it for several days before I even show symptoms. It would almost kill me if I knew I'd brought it home and someone in my family passed on. The same with if I knew I infected someone else and the died. I feel this social-distancingthing is not just about me but about us - all of us. It's about trying to bring the bell curve down so our medical system stands a good chance of helping those of us who really have a bad reaction to COVID-19.

Perfectly put, and I agree with everything you have said.

Why are people still going to church when I'm seeing virtual services from all denominations online?

[Canoerebel]

[To Encircled, with regard to his CNN post] I did. I told you that yesterday CNN reported that religious services were permitted in Georgia. They essentially aren't. CNN also significantly misplayed a statement made by the governor of Georgia. That's two instances I know of in the past few days, with many more going much further back.

The USA doesn't have a de facto national lockdown but the states are pretty much handling it very well. At least, well for how we operate. And many of our jurisdictions got it right ahead of the European nations (NOT, as I've emphasized over and over, because we were better but because we went "last" and thus were fortunate to learn from you all).

[Encircled]

India you mean? The later a country experiences a surge the smarter they look.[:)] I'm not sure India will weather this well either. I can imagine they are having trouble with testing. Parts of India may also benefit from the possible climactic protection that seems to be active in parts of Africa.

Oh, I agree but the idea that Western Democracies won't accept stuff that protects them is clearly an issue more for you than for us.

The sooner you shut down your country, using whatever means you have in that constitution, the sooner you'll flatten the curve and the sooner we will all hopefully be on the other side of this.

Then you can blame China!

Over here I've been struggling to stop laughing at some of the newspapers suggesting that China needs to pay for the damage its done. Its almost like they have ignored our history!

[Encircled]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

[To Encircled, with regard to his CNN post] I did. I told you that yesterday CNN reported that religious services were permitted in Georgia. They essentially aren't. CNN also significantly misplayed a statement made by the governor of Georgia. That's two instances I know of in the past few days, with many more going much further back.

The USA doesn't have a de facto national lockdown but the states are pretty much handling it very well. At least, well for how we operate. And many of our jurisdictions got it right ahead of the European nations (NOT, as I've emphasized over and over, because we were better but because we went "last" and thus were fortunate to learn from you all).

Right

But are 14 states refusing to ban these or not?

Its a pretty clear claim from CNN, and if its wrong, you should be able to go "No, and here is the evidence"

[Cap Mandrake]

There are many reasons for the "dithering"

--expats trying to get home
--fear of being called racist for travel bans
--tourism cancellations
--catastrophic economic consequences
--even public health consequence of economic calamity...depression, suicide, alcoholism, opiate addiction, homicide etc

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: Encircled

I read Fox news and Daily Wire and Briebart. Guess that makes me a brainwashed right winger from your perspective.

Look, if those are your sources, that is completely up to you.

But the question is, do you have a national lock down yet?

And are 14 states still refusing to ban gatherings like the one highlighted in the news report?

You, CR and CM have all told me that CNN can't be trusted (either blatantly or in other ways) but none of you have told me whether that is true or not.

No, we don't have a national lock down and are not likely to.
The thing about our democratic republic is that it functions at the local level.
Attempts by the feds at mandates will be resisted by the states.

In spite of the War Between the States, states still have rights.

Are all of the EU 'states' acting as one?

I never implied CNN can't be trusted, just that it presents with a leftist slant as Fox, DW and Breibart present with a right wing slant. Understanding the filter helps a lot in deciphering the hidden truth.

[Canoerebel]

Some from the USA are saying, "This is the way we're doing it, it seems to be working, we'll keep trying. You folks elsewhere are doing your best. Keep on. Good luck." There are some from other countries who seem to be saying here, "This is the way we do it in our [smaller, less populous, more dense, more accustomed to nationwide action] country. Do it our way."

[durnedwolf]

ORIGINAL: Encircled

ORIGINAL: durnedwolf

ORIGINAL: Encircled

Why would you say outdoor services are fine?

What medical evidence do you have to back that up?

for my 2-cents - if everyone maintains that 6+ feet of separation... But then there's the parking lot. And there needs to be some kind of bathroom service - yes?

For myself, there's nothing wrong with me reading the bible and worshiping my higher power with my family. Trying this social-distancing thing seems to be reducing the size of the bell curve and social-distancing is not just about keeping me and my family safe but also, I'm trying to keep members of my community safe.

My concern is that I can pick up the virus and spread it for several days before I even show symptoms. It would almost kill me if I knew I'd brought it home and someone in my family passed on. The same with if I knew I infected someone else and the died. I feel this social-distancingthing is not just about me but about us - all of us. It's about trying to bring the bell curve down so our medical system stands a good chance of helping those of us who really have a bad reaction to COVID-19.

Perfectly put, and I agree with everything you have said.

Why are people still going to church when I'm seeing virtual services from all denominations online?

That's like asking why the sky is blue - lol.

We all see things differently. Some folk just believe they need to be in a house of worship with a member of the cloth leading services. I think I'll stay at home and find a different solution to practice my faith.

[Encircled]

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

There are many reasons for the "dithering"

--expats trying to get home
--fear of being called racist for travel bans
--tourism cancellations
--catastrophic economic consequences
--even public health consequence of economic calamity...depression, suicide, alcoholism, opiate addiction, homicide etc

1. Wouldn't stop that
2. Never stopped Trump before
3. Always going to happen
4. More important that peoples lives? Guess that depends entirely on your point of view
5. More long term though, you can't ignore them but you have to fight the short term problem (the virus) first

I get that this is an enormously tough decision for leaders to take, and its not an easy one (which is why I'm cutting some of them some slack) but Macron and Merkel in particular were abundantly clear on the dangers and what they were going to do.

Sadly you can't say the same about my PM and your President (though in your Presidents case, the states rights thing does complicate it a lot more)

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Encircled

Why would you say outdoor services are fine?

What medical evidence do you have to back that up?

Because the risk of getting it is much lower outside than in a closed environment.

[Encircled]

That's like asking why the sky is blue - lol.

We all see things differently. Some folk just believe they need to be in a house of worship with a member of the cloth leading services. I think I'll stay at home and find a different solution to practice my faith.

Aye, those of us that are not even remotely religous do struggle understanding the motivations of those that are but your way seems a lot safer!