SA-21 and radar vs JASSM & F-22

[shania]

In last red flag, F-35 with support (like growler, etc) can get close enough (and not been targeted) to drop GBU-31 on advanced IADS, like s-300/400.

This is in limited space, with aggressors carrying IRST pods, multiple lives.

[wild_Willie2]

Hi there,

As the latest reports from Red Flag stated that the F-35 in its current configuration where taking out the most modern Russian SAM systems with just free fall weapons, I decided to run some tests in Command.

I tested one on one engagements between a Jamming F-35 (although with some extra Growler support) and the most modern Russian SAM systems and the outcome was quite interesting.

Proficiency of both sides: regular. Conditions: daytime, no clouds.

F35 v. Sa-23 Gladiator- F35 jamming, 36k, Growlers jamming at 60 miles, SBD/LJDAM released at 2 miles, Sa-23 destroyed.

F35 v. Sa-26- F35 jamming, 36k, Growlers jamming at 32 miles, SBD/LJDAM released at 2 miles, Sa-26 destroyed.

F35 v. Sa-17 Grizzly- F35 jamming, 36k, Growlers jamming at 31 miles, SBD/LJDAM released at 2 miles, Sa-17 destroyed.

F35 v. Sa-25- F35 jamming, 36k, Growlers jamming at 69 miles, F-35 detected at 8 miles via IR camera, AC and SBD/LJDAM destroyed.

F35 v. Sa-20a Gargoyle- F35 jamming, 36k, Growlers jamming at 81 miles, SBD/LJDAM released at 2 miles, Sa-20a destroyed.

F35 v. Sa-12a Gladiator- F35 jamming, 36k, Growlers jamming at 81 miles, SBD/LJDAM released at 2 miles, Sa-12a destroyed.

F35 v. Sa-10b Grumble- F35 jamming, 36k, Growlers jamming at 42 miles, SBD/LJDAM released at 2 miles, Sa-10b destroyed.

F35 v. Sa-21a Growler- F35 jamming, 36k, Growlers jamming at 116 miles, SBD/LJDAM released at 2 miles, Sa-21a destroyed.

F35 v. Sa-21a/b Growler- F35 jamming, 36k, Growlers jamming at 120 miles, F-35 detected at 36 miles, AC and SBD/LJDAM destroyed.

F35 v. Sa-22 Greyhound- F35 jamming, 36k, Growlers jamming at 15 miles, SBD/LJDAM released at 2 miles, Sa-22 destroyed.

F35 v. Sa-8b Gecko- F35 jamming, 36k, Growlers jamming at 10 miles, SBD/LJDAM released at 2 miles, Sa-8b destroyed.

So we can basically conclude that the in a one v. one situation, a jamming F-35 with some growler support can take out over 80% of the most modern Russian SAM systems with just bombs. Only the systems with the best radars and self-guided radar homing missiles (Sa-21a/b) or with extremely good IR systems (Sa-25) can stand up to it in a one v. one situation.

I personally think this is very useful to know while planning operations.

W.

[kevinkins]

Thanks. In your testing, what was the ratio of the number of incoming F-35's to the number of available individual outgoing missiles (SAMs)? The results also begs the question, are there enough Growlers to go around? And will the USAF purchase their own version. Seems odd to rely on a USN asset.

Kevin

Edit: I forgot to asked if any of those pesky Manpads were deployed?

[Raptorx7_slith]

ORIGINAL: kevinkin

The results also begs the question, are there enough Growlers to go around? And will the USAF purchase their own version. Seems odd to rely on a USN asset.

Kevin

Thats a really good point, why does the air force rely on the growler? They have compass call and the like but my understanding is that the growler is the best dedicated OEW platform right now. F-35 is obviously a choice but its strange that a dedicated platform doesn't exist.

Does anyone know why an EF-15 been made or drawn up, or the growler pods being put on some other air-frame for the USAF?

[mikmykWS]

ORIGINAL: kevinkin

Thanks. In your testing, what was the ratio of the number of incoming F-35's to the number of available individual outgoing missiles (SAMs)? The results also begs the question, are there enough Growlers to go around? And will the USAF purchase their own version. Seems odd to rely on a USN asset.

Kevin

F-35 seems to have some internal OECM capability. We've updated the latest db to reflect that.

US Navy has 13 (maybe 14) Growler Sqdns in service with 5 Aircraft per squadron/carrier.

I'm betting some current drones and certainly future drones will be jammers as well.

Mike

[Cik]

the real question is: are growlers the best OECM platform in existence right now, and if so, why is that? you'd think anything the growler could mount ECM-wise the F-35 could as well. perhaps the F35 can't output enough power with it's single powerplant, or the capability just isn't integrated yet due to early stages?

[kevinkins]

[/quote]

I'm betting some current drones and certainly future drones will be jammers as well.

That would be cool. Thanks.

[lowchi]

ORIGINAL: kevinkin


I'm betting some current drones and certainly future drones will be jammers as well.

That would be cool. Thanks.

I always notice the lack of jamming options when playing pure USAF scenarios. Just look at the numbers. As mike said the navy has about 100 Growlers. The main flying branch has about 14 EC-130H Compass call...
There are rumors in aviation forums that the secretive RQ-180 will have jamming capability, but than again nobody knows if this thing really exists.

I wouldnt be suprised if the USAF has some aces up theire sleeves. We will have to see when and if something emerges from the "black world"...

[DrRansom]

The USAF now has expressed interest in a penetrating EW capability. That would indicate that the USAF doesn't have the capability that it wished for.

[Gunner98]

This article is a bit dated but I recall that in the 90's the USAF was playing with EA-6Bs, and it seems that at least in the schoolhouse and limited operations it is doing the same with the EA-18Gs.

Lost but not forgotten perhaps.

http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineArch ... idbey.aspx

B

[peterc100248]

For those of you so inclined to read, this is an interesting discussion with a former Prowler/Growler EWO:

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/confes ... 1694954599

The EC-130 Compass Call works differently in that it is very specialized in disrupting the inter-node communications between integrated air defense assets. There are some rumors that F-35s have quite a bit more jamming ability than other fighter/strike aircraft.

One lesser known fact about jamming. "Pure" signal jamming is an activity that requires very large amounts of electrical power since you are running high power RF systems. USAF systems all utilize AC generated by the engines - thus their available power is more limited than USN systems which all use external pods with ram-air generators. In other words USN jammer pods each generate their own power and do not draw from the aircraft itself.

I believe the only exception to this was the systems in B-52s during the cold war era.

[Sardaukar]

SA-21 (S-400) and similar are often with SA-15 Tor or Pantsir-systems, for close-in protection against guided weapons attack. So, test against only S-400 might be bit misleading.

[mikmykWS]

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

SA-21 (S-400) and similar are often with SA-15 Tor or Pantsir-systems, for close-in protection against guided weapons attack. So, test against only S-400 might be bit misleading.

Yeah lot of times I'll set up a nearbye battery with WRA's set to shoot down guided weapons only. Very effective. In general you should set your WRA's to shoot at about 90 percent the range anyways so you'd have some curb rider bumping in and out of range trying to the get the AI to waste missiles etc.

Mike

[kevinkins]

I may have posted this elsewhere. But should be here too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pYoivVByMc

US Pacific Fleet's Electronic Warfare Commander on Capabilities and Threats Jan 2017

[peterc100248]

I thought I might post the test scenario I've been using. It highlights some things that I think are not generally known. A couple of quick notes:

I created a fictional "super jammer" out of an EC-130H because I wanted one consistent on-station aircraft to jam without having to run off and refuel. So you can assume a heavy jamming situation using NGJ technology.

There are 4 fictional F-35As (headed away, closest to base) equipped with NGJ capability and armed with 2 JASSMs each. Of course these should be launched at 200ft AGL. These 8 missiles are sufficient to take out the SA-21 almost every time.

There are 3 fictional F-35As (inbound to the target sites) equipped with NGJ capability and armed with 8 SDB IIs each. The SDBs should be launched at 10,000 feet as the aircraft are descending. These 24 missiles fail to reach the target every single time as they are shot down by the SA-21s.

Here are some unusual things I discovered. Draw your own conclusions.

1. Offensive ECM in CMANO appears to only protect the platform the pod is on. An SDB coming head-on presents a very small RCS. That, plus the jamming, should render even very advanced radars almost incapable of detecting it until it is very close.

2. In CMANO, weapons and aircraft below the radar horizon are masked, which is correct.

3. In CMANO, weapons above the radar horizon appear to not be protected by ECM - even when right next to the jamming platform.

The best tactic to attack advanced IAD systems, like the SA-21, is still terrain masking.

[stilesw]

Gunner98, peterc100248,

Thanks for the information. I've posted these items in the "reference" library.

As always, anyone wishing to get access to the library please PM me with your email address and I'll add you to the Dropbox access list.

-Wayne

[wild_Willie2]

all use external pods with ram-air generators. In other words USN jammer pods each generate their own power and do not draw from the aircraft itself.

I believe the only exception to this was the systems in B-52s durin

In this scenario it was one F-35 and one Growler v. a single individual SAM system.

W.

[kevinkins]

[/quote]

single individual SAM system.

It's not you. I am just very new to all this. To me "system" is loosely defined. Maybe post the DB reference number(s) to what the F-35 and Growler are attacking or the actual scenario file. It will bring your nice testing results to life. To me a "system" could be entire battalion or something less if well integrated at a level having fewer missiles than a full battalion. You must be engaging something far less than a S-400 battalion.

Thanks.

Kevin

[50caliberGhost]

NakedWeasel has the cheapest and safest solution to destroying vs s400 that i have seen using f22/sdb. I was able to lock onto s400 at 52 miles with sdb. It is cheaper than jassm/b1 and safer and more effective than bol launched harms. The "you brexit you fixit" scenario with overlapping a2ad defense had 4 s300s and 2 s400s. I destroyed an s400 in it and rendered a second s400 useless as it had no missiles left. Didnt lose a single pilot or uav just sdbs.

The key was first establishing a fire control track from a triton mq4c at 31 miles from s400, passing the info to an f22 strike package then ducking down to the deck and turning off radar. There is only a minute to dump altitude and no other elint/stealth combination seems as good at fire control tracking. 2 well placed growlers are critical as well. Of course i havent planned for how fast the s400 can shoot and scoot but they would have to move in less than 5 minutes i think. Didnt find maldj useful vs s400. I attached a screenshot.

The sa21 is not yet visible in the screenshot as this is before the triton picks it up.

[SeaQueen]

Without watching the scenario play through it's hard to say what you're doing wrong, but I'll offer some suggestions:

ORIGINAL: mikeCK
Scenario 1, I had two F-22s with all radars off and only internal AAMs flying at 35,000 feet. An SA-21b launch was detected (actually a bunch) from a site and radar in southern Crimea about 150-175 NM from the F-22s and the missiles started heading right for me. I ordered the F-22s to turn perpendicular to the missile vector but they kept tracking. Eventually the missiles struck (1st missile in one case and 2nd in the other) both F-22s and destroyed them.

By turning the aircraft perpendicular to the incoming missiles you actually made their radar situation worse by exposing their side RCS. The SA-21 only needs a sniff of them to fire, depending on what the ROE are. If they're set to "engage unknowns"/"Weapons Free" then it's very likely that they'll open up with minimal provocation. Once the ground based radar has guided the missiles to a sufficient range, their seeker head turns on, and at that point RCS probably won't help you.

SA-21s were specifically designed with countering stealth aircraft in mind, so one ought not to expect to be able to easily confront them with stealth aircraft alone. Significant support is necessary. Even that is subject to problems. Was the SA-21 looking into the EA-18G's jamming beam or were they out of alignment? The effectiveness of jamming is much decreased when out of alignment. You want the SA-21 to have to stare right into the jamming beams of the Growlers and the MALDs in order to engage the F-22s.

So same question, how does a ground based radar 100 nm away detect low observable missiles at 30ft altitude. Wouldn't the curvature of the earth prevent that? Also, how are the migs seeing them from 150-Nm away? I should add that the hit probability for the SA-21s was about 75%. The AA-12s used by the Migs was about 80%. I get the latter as IR is IR and it is a missile.

If the curvature of the earth was always an issue, you'd always be horizon limited. That is not necessarily the case.
Depending on the frequency of the radar and its output power, however, the atmosphere actually functions as a waveguide, allowing for much longer radar propagation. The MiG-31 has a very powerful radar, and the SA-21 does too. Scenario 2 leaves me with the same questions regarding jammer alignment.