All of France strategy

[Rannug61]

Hard to remember the details now but bullet911 might recall how it went down. An idea could be to lower the national morale effect on loosing Paris but increase the effect on all other French objectives a bit, specially the Maginot hexes. Another way to go about it could be having a rule saying Paris must be occupied by an allied unit at all times and failing to do so would lower the French morale a bit. This way the Axis gets a shorter window of opportunity.

[Hubert Cater]

Tricky one for sure, too much of a NM penalty and France surrenders possibly too soon and before the Germans reach Paris, and too little and it can drag out too long. As it is now it feels about right where in most cases France will fall once Paris is captured (if an Axis player drives hard to Paris) and shortly thereafter if Paris holds out for a few extra turns.

Granted this might not be the perfect solution for what everyone is after but since we are pretty close it might not require much of an applicable adjustment if needed.

[Markiss]

Good job, bullet911, bringing this topic up, this subject has attracted the best of company.

I am surprised Fafnir or Sugar haven't weighed-in, they usually do when such a weighty topic presents itself.

Are you guys still alive? You didn't succumb to the pandemic did you? Did you?

Sugar, play me. Anytime, any game. War in Europe. World at War. WW1. Are you still Alive???? Show me! I'm from Missouri. (Not really).

If not now, when !!!! Will we be alive a week from now? Who knows! Come on!!

[PvtBenjamin]

I always wondered if Fafnir and Sugar were one in the same.[8D] Never really bought off on that final big battle.

[crispy131313]

What if the Allies had the opportunity to declare Paris an open city via decision event like they had historically. The decision could be presented if there are no Allied unit in Paris or in the adjacent hexes. This would eliminate the gamey choice of the Axis to just not move in as the French could just hand it over. This decision would probably only pop up in this scenario.

[Taxman66]

Thief!

[crispy131313]

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

Thief!

lol I didn’t realize that I stole that idea, need more coffee this morning!

[Hubert Cater]

Thanks for the additional feedback everyone.

Bill and I are discussing and I'd like to ask the following big picture clarification, and I just ask as a lot of different feedback has made its way into the thread, so we just want to make sure we've got it absolutely right here.

Is the primary issue the idea that some Axis players are trying to capture Algiers prior to Paris, and if they do, then they can say no to Vichy and quickly force the surrender of all of France, e.g. without having to battle any longer than they need to do otherwise?

Sensing an Axis player may be going for Algiers, and in order to prevent this, Allies send reinforcements there and can successfully stop the strategy, but then an Axis player subsequently decides to say yes to Vichy resulting in the Allies losing their units in Algiers which is the part that feels the most unfair to the Allied side?

Is this the big one overall, or are there any other concerns?

[crispy131313]

I think the concern is that an Axis player can leave Paris unoccupied as an “out” for many turns when it could have otherwise been captured while they see how all of France strategy is going and possibly goat the British to send forces to Algeria which will auto surrender as soon as they capture Paris.

[pzgndr]

ORIGINAL: crispy131313
I think the concern is that an Axis player can leave Paris unoccupied as an “out” for many turns when it could have otherwise been captured

A script to check for German units adjacent to Paris and no French units in or adjacent to Paris could suffice to force a French surrender and settle this gamey issue. For Allied units "surrendering" in neutral Vichy territory, since they are not really surrendering in the sense of becoming POWs but rather would likely be repatriated somehow, the automatic disbanding could be considered to return something to the Allied player. Just a thought.

[Rannug61]

Nov 23, 2018 Fafnir (Allies) vs Sugar (Axis) WON by Fafnir …………………………..

[PvtBenjamin]

I know it the game of the century [;)] Certainly the two best players.

[Hubert Cater]

ORIGINAL: crispy131313
I think the concern is that an Axis player can leave Paris unoccupied as an “out” for many turns when it could have otherwise been captured while they see how all of France strategy is going and possibly goat the British to send forces to Algeria which will auto surrender as soon as they capture Paris.

Thanks and I have some follow up questions then.


1) How viable is the all of France strategy?

2) How often are players trying it and is it something that would never work between two equal players, or is it still a possibility.

3) Is it dependent on capturing Algiers prior to Paris? Or is it simply the case of I can still take all of France, e.g. eventually take Algiers, even if I take Paris first?

* * *

The reason I ask all of the above is it seems to be an issue of timing. For example, where an Axis player, due to game mechanics, holds off on taking Paris because that's what triggers the final surrender (in most cases) and there is usually a bit of a delay where the National Morale reaches zero, and during that window they decide upon whether the all of France strategy is going to work or not.

In fairness there is a bit of gaminess to that and I think on our part we'd like to address that without possible further exploitation from the Axis side. Essentially everything always seems to come down to a science of a manipulation of the rules to squeeze everything out for maximum advantage and the last thing we'd want to do is only fix things temporarily, or miss something entirely whereby Axis players can still get what they want from this.

I also ask as we've had some further thoughts but it depends upon what some of these answers might be in the end.

[Hubert Cater]

ORIGINAL: pzgndr
A script to check for German units adjacent to Paris and no French units in or adjacent to Paris could suffice to force a French surrender and settle this gamey issue.

My hesitation to this is that if I'm an Axis player, and these are the rules, I would probably be able to work around this by ensuring I destroy the unit in Paris without leaving any adjacent Axis units to Paris by the end of the turn. An in and out attack could achieve this etc. We could change it to two hexes and no units in Paris, but I think even that would be workable with air power and tanks. Maybe 3 hexes but then a French player would need to remember/know the rule and not accidentally force a surrender (and wonder what just happened) by possibly vacating Paris too early and we could compensate with a minimum date and well you get the idea... I just see it being a headache to get just right because I'm sure someone will be able to exploit this eventually as well no matter what we try, which is why I'm still leaning more towards a National Morale related solution.

[Elessar2]

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin

I always wondered if Fafnir and Sugar were one in the same.[8D] Never really bought off on that final big battle.

Or a guy named Terif from the Battlefront boards, very similar style to Sugar's.

Of course, he wouldn't be the only refugee who might have changed his handle in the transition... [:'(]

[PvtBenjamin]

ORIGINAL: Elessar2

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin

I always wondered if Fafnir and Sugar were one in the same.[8D] Never really bought off on that final big battle.

Or a guy named Terif from the Battlefront boards, very similar style to Sugar's.

Of course, he wouldn't be the only refugee who might have changed his handle in the transition... [:'(]

I like your style Elessar, Lee Harvey Oswald my azz.[:-]


Actually if he didn't have an alternate ID he'd be the only one.

[PvtBenjamin]

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater


Thanks and I have some follow up questions then.


1) How viable is the all of France strategy?

2) How often are players trying it and is it something that would never work between two equal players, or is it still a possibility.

3) Is it dependent on capturing Algiers prior to Paris? Or is it simply the case of I can still take all of France, e.g. eventually take Algiers, even if I take Paris first?

* * *

1) All of France is certainly possible (almost a certainty if Axis tries), but if Paris falls (which it usually does) at least by late May I feel All of France is a loser for the Axis. The Allied player has to go on the premise the Axis player will try it and you can make it very painful. The worst thing for Allies is the Brits lose the bombers. They end up being expendable units vs units you have the (maybe) entire game. Refresh my memory does Spanish diplo need to be 30% for Spain to join after the fall of Algiers via AOF? I know DE 603 is 60%.


2) No one has tried it on me in a very very long time. Many tried it on me when I was new & it didn't help my impression of the game.

3) When it has happened to me the Axis takes Paris & doesn't accept vichy. I do think the game should prevent someone from just not taking Paris and then attacking Algiers tho.

[bullet911]

Could you tell me a bit more about what your Axis opponent did exactly with his invasion of France to possibly slow down the final surrender of France?
IF I remember rightly I took the Netherlands then Belgium once they declared war and they fought my way through France. Albeit didn't go in as heavy as one normally would. Round the back of the Maginot line and steadily towards Paris (did leave Paris unoccupied for a few turns) sending faster units to capture the towns beyond and even in south west France, but leaving the NM objectives at Lyon and Marseille.


Personally taking all of France isn't as easy as one might think. A lot depends on when Italy join the axis and as my opponent proved (Rannug61) with the right counter it even has the potential to end the game if I didn't decide to just cut my losses, if the French reinforcements arrived in Algeria with what Rannug61 did as well there would have being no way of me taking it.

I'm not sure what the answer is (if there even is one) as there still needs to be a potential for the axis to try that strategy, the rewards for the effort are worth the extra MPP. But also feels harsh to the allied player that he successfully stopped the axis taking all of France but he lost out in the end.

Although it's not tried often an experienced axis player could always try 'All of France' knowing the outcome whether he captures Algeria or not and an allied player would have to then decided what units he is willing to loose if he tries to counter that.

Not sure what the answer would be anyway. Having all of France still needs to be a viable option.

[Hubert Cater]

Thanks for the feedback again everyone and what we have a few further thoughts. Would the following help? One or the other or all?

1) All of France strategy is a little more challenging, e.g. perhaps an additional French unit in Algeria, available at start or via a UNIT event (forming a unit) as needed based on Axis unit range to Algiers, to ideally require less of an initial commitment from the GB player. For example while the final strategy is not yet clear.

2) An alternative capital for a France in Algeria, e.g. so that an Axis player needs to capture more than just Algiers. Perhaps Oran would be included.

3) An event (final details to be determined) to force the Axis to decide sooner on an all of France strategy or not. The likely event here would be along the lines of under the right conditions France is given the option to essentially surrender forcing the Axis side to decide on Vichy or not. For example, we already have it in place that if Paris is not immediately taken France will eventually surrender once National Morale reaches zero, but there is a probable few turn delay on this, and the idea here would be just to give the French side the option to accelerate this surrender from their end once the writing is on the wall and not leave it to the Axis side to drag it out as long as possible in gamey terms. This is inspired from similar suggestions already put into the thread above.


Also, for those that go for an all of France strategy, is it typically a direct amphibious assault on Algiers, or a combination of Italian units moving in from Libya via Constantine as well as a possible direct assault on Algiers?

Thanks and any further feedback here would be helpful to make sure we ideally get this as close to right as possible.
Hubert

[bullet911]

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

Thanks for the feedback again everyone and what we have a few further thoughts. Would the following help? One or the other or all?

1) All of France strategy is a little more challenging, e.g. perhaps an additional French unit in Algeria, available at start or via a UNIT event (forming a unit) as needed based on Axis unit range to Algiers, to ideally require less of an initial commitment from the GB player. For example while the final strategy is not yet clear.

Also, for those that go for an all of France strategy, is it typically a direct amphibious assault on Algiers, or a combination of Italian units moving in from Libya via Constantine as well as a possible direct assault on Algiers?

Thanks and any further feedback here would be helpful to make sure we ideally get this as close to right as possible.
Hubert

I'd go for option 1 via a UNIT event (if it works after testing) whether that unit is allowed to transport to mainland France is another thing.
My game against Rannug61 it was by German units from Sicily to Tunis and a amphibious landing by Italy else where. Other ways are also possible