OT: Corona virus

[Encircled]

Hans - misuse of words from me I think "immunity certificate" after someone has had it is what I meant.

Capt - I understand that, and do worry about it, but certainly in the UK it would be very hard to keep that on the statue books after the crisis is over.

[MakeeLearn]

Coronavirus: Elderly Europeans Denied Treatment
April 11, 2020


https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/1587 ... -abandoned



"With well over a half-million confirmed cases of Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) in Europe, a growing number of regional medical authorities have begun issuing guidelines and protocols that call for hospitals to prioritize younger patients over those who are older.

In Italy and Spain, the two countries most affected by the coronavirus pandemic in Europe, doctors in overwhelmed intensive care units have for weeks been making life or death decisions about who receives emergency treatment. The new protocols, however, amount to government directives that instruct medical personnel effectively to abandon elderly patients to their fate."

[Canoerebel]

An acquaintance involved in infectious diseases mentioned to me yesterday that there is essentially no way to test hundreds of millions of people (as in the US) and, even if you could, the test results would be worthless. Apparently, most of the testing being done and discussed is intended to flag those who have Covid...but doesn't distinguish between them and those who had it and got over it. Creating a usable test is hugely problematic. Testing hundreds of millions of people would take an incredible amount of time and expense.

That's not going to happen.

What's going to happen is that countries are going to begin easing restrictions carefully. Korea, Japan and China led the way. Denmark, Austria, Italy are in the process. The US and probably many others aren't far behind.

We've flattened the curve domestically. We can't maintain lockdown forever, despite concerns about further eruptions. We're going to have to rely on what we've learned, what we're learning, and quick detection and response to outbreaks. The fact that mortality seems to be focused in the elderly and co-morbid situtaions gives us some latitude in what we do.

I don't expect stadiums to be packed with people this summer. I don't expect movie theaters to re-open (unless serious countermeasures are in place and everything looks "okay"). I do expect countermeasures to begin easing fairly soon. It turns out that some states are serving as good pathfinders. Arkansans lead the way!

[Cap Mandrake]

The problem with surveillance technologies is you NEVER get it back from law enforcement or even more dangerous government uses.

A good example is "cell tower spoofing". This is a device which actively tricks nearby cellphones into mistaking it for a phone company cell tower and intercepting calls. It's portable (lap top size) and the target doesn't have a clue. It was ushered in with promises to require a search warrant before every use but now hundreds of law enforcement agencies use them to spy on gang-bangers or even spy on their ex-spouses.

It's called an IMSA-catcher.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stingray_phone_tracker

[MakeeLearn]

TAKING ITS TOLL Coronavirus graph shows US has LOW death rate compared to population numbers and Belgium is one of worst hit nations
5 Apr 2020

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11405610/ ... s-belgium/


"However, data analysts have said that taking per-capita figures into account biases the numbers against smaller nations.

Out of 2million cases and 129,000 deaths worldwide, America accounts for more than 600,000 with 26,000 fatalities.

The new graphic however appears to show the US has actually relatively had an impact less severe than other nations when you take into account population."

[Canoerebel]

They're just figuring this out?

[mind_messing]

I'd actually read the full article than rely on either the headline or MakeeLearn's selections from the article.

The reckoning is still very much ongoing on the human cost of all this.

[MakeeLearn]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

I'd actually read the full article than rely on either the headline or MakeeLearn's selections from the article.

The reckoning is still very much ongoing on the human cost of all this.

Please read the real article always, and look at date.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

It isn't clear what this comment is aimed at, nor who, but it's inappropriate here. People disagree as to what and how and when but this community isn't cavalier about life and death issues.

ORIGINAL: Encircled
It does sound like the deaths of thousands isn't as important as your personal freedom for about a year, but maybe I'm reading it wrong?

I guess it isn't fair to expect non-Americans to know our history and this illustrious quote:

"Give me Liberty or give me Death!"

Who says the loss of freedoms will be only for a year?
History teaches that once they are sacrificed, a fight is required to regain them.

I do agree that the reprehensible attempt to color those concerned about freedom and liberty as oafs uncaring of the suffering of others is inappropriate.

And this kind of an accusation is anything but dispassionate.

There's the argument of conflicting liberties.

Does your right to, say, liberty of movement or assembly, have more importance that someone else's liberty of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness?

[MakeeLearn]

AND STOP POSTING SO %^**&^ CLOSE TO ME!

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

I'd actually read the full article than rely on either the headline or MakeeLearn's selections from the article.

The reckoning is still very much ongoing on the human cost of all this.

Please read the real article always, and look at date.

From the article you have posted:

"But analysts have criticized the data presentation as being useless way of gauging the outbreak's impacts."

"Professor Carl Bergstrom, from the University of Washington, described the graphic as "worse than useless"."

Note, the comment from the same University of Washington that is frequently cited in this thread.

[Canoerebel]

I did read it. This media source is a bit bumfuzzled about the per capita thing. To explain this phenomenon it offers quotes about the fact that the spread is the same, implying that bigger countries like the USA will eventually suffer proportionally. But they overlook the data that indicates this isn't the case and isn't projected to be the case.

Even allowing for time, the US is projected to come in far under many other countries.

[Canoerebel]

The same question could be asked in reverse: Does your right to liberty have more importance than somebody else's right to life? Half of our population thinks so on a scale vastly greater than Covid-19.

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

It isn't clear what this comment is aimed at, nor who, but it's inappropriate here. People disagree as to what and how and when but this community isn't cavalier about life and death issues.

I guess it isn't fair to expect non-Americans to know our history and this illustrious quote:

"Give me Liberty or give me Death!"

Who says the loss of freedoms will be only for a year?
History teaches that once they are sacrificed, a fight is required to regain them.

I do agree that the reprehensible attempt to color those concerned about freedom and liberty as oafs uncaring of the suffering of others is inappropriate.

And this kind of an accusation is anything but dispassionate.

There's the argument of conflicting liberties.

Does your right to, say, liberty of movement or assembly, have more importance that someone else's liberty of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness?

[Sammy5IsAlive]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I did read it. This media source is a bit bumfuzzled about the per capita thing. To explain this phenomenon it offers quotes about the fact that the spread is the same, implying that bigger countries like the USA will eventually suffer proportionally. But they overlook the data that indicates this isn't the case and isn't projected to be the case.

Even allowing for time, the US is projected to come in far under many other countries.

It's the Sun - bumfuzzlement (!) is their default status.

I think you mentioned UK papers previously - basically the Times, Guardian, FT, Telegraph, Independent are all pretty trustworthy. The Mail has some good journalism in patches but has a tendency to tub-thumping and sensationalism. The tabloids (Sun, Mirror, Star) are worth avoiding.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I did read it. This media source is a bit bumfuzzled about the per capita thing. To explain this phenomenon it offers quotes about the fact that the spread is the same, implying that bigger countries like the USA will eventually suffer proportionally. But they overlook the data that indicates this isn't the case and isn't projected to be the case.

Even allowing for time, the US is projected to come in far under many other countries.

Given that the official US COVID deaths required a laboratory test, the official US figures are incomplete.

The change on the 14th of the CDC's reporting on COVID-19 to now include confirmed and probable cause deaths will take some time to filter through - https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... in-us.html

Once this change has effect and the records reconciled, the numbers will inevitably rise. I'd be happy to be proved wrong, but I doubt that will be the case. There's already precedent in the UK and France around deaths in care homes not being counted.

[Canoerebel]

To clarify, I haven't mentioned UK papers individually but did note I'm not familiar with them or their reputations. Thanks for the guide, though as you might guess my rule of thumb is to approach the media with skepticism until proven otherwise.

[MakeeLearn]

Coronavirus is spreading fast in small-town America
04/16/20 10:30 AM EDT

https://thehill.com/opinion/civil-right ... wn-america


"Coronavirus is spreading fast in small-town America. As COVID-19 began to ravage densely populated metro areas, some hoped the distance inherent to rural communities would act as a shield against the same fate. Now that the pandemic has reached nearly every county and most rural places across the nation, we see how wrong that hope was. Even the New York Times has started running headlines that read, “This Is Going to Kill Small-Town America.”"

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

The same question could be asked in reverse: Does your right to liberty have more importance than somebody else's right to life? Half of our population thinks so on a scale vastly greater than Covid-19.

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: HansBolter




I guess it isn't fair to expect non-Americans to know our history and this illustrious quote:

"Give me Liberty or give me Death!"

Who says the loss of freedoms will be only for a year?
History teaches that once they are sacrificed, a fight is required to regain them.

I do agree that the reprehensible attempt to color those concerned about freedom and liberty as oafs uncaring of the suffering of others is inappropriate.

And this kind of an accusation is anything but dispassionate.

There's the argument of conflicting liberties.

Does your right to, say, liberty of movement or assembly, have more importance that someone else's liberty of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness?

The priority is clear: can't be either happy or at liberty if you're dead.

[Canoerebel]

I agree.

And you missed the point.

[MakeeLearn]

Coronavirus: Gov. Newsom says things will be normal when we have “herd immunity.” Here’s why that’s scary.
What does ‘herd immunity’ look like? About 28 million infected Californians. Maybe 840,000 deaths.
April 16, 2020
https://www.santacruzsentinel.com/2020/ ... ats-scary/

"What’s herd immunity? It’s when so many people have been infected and develop protective antibodies that a virus runs out of hosts. That’s likely what happened in the 1918-1919 flu pandemic, which killed 20 to 40 million people and then vanished.

What does “herd immunity” look like in the age of COVID-19? Without a vaccine, about 28 million infected Californians.

Based on current estimates, about 5 percent of infected people — or roughly 1.4 million Californians — would get severely ill. Of these, 840,000 could die, although there’s hope of holding that number down."