Refit bugs(?)

[eskuche]

According to the manual,

Code: Select all

Units in reserve mode will have their construction points reduced to 25%, and will get no construction support from HQ.

This actually currently applies to REFIT units but NOT reserve units currently, which seems like a large oversight. Additionally, not just construction but also engineering and artillery values are affected, which probably has caught a lot of people's permanently refitting elite units mounting fort assaults unawares.

Further, the manual states that support units at HQs are on permanent refit status. I haven't tested this but doesn't this mean that any committed artillery (in conjunction with the above bug) have been working at 25% efficiency for who knows how long? Edit: assuming the #1 bug is true, which can be tested easily by just toggling refit.

For whatever reason (updates, etc.), what is seen in this previous version (https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.a ... n&#3919768), i.e., %toe reduction in construction value, is no longer true. It's a flat 25% efficiency for refit units period. Not in updated manual or v12.xx as far as I can see.

[EwaldvonKleist]

This is actually significant, under what version did you tests this (does it also affect 1.11.03)?

[Bozo_the_Clown]

If this is true, that would be a nasty bug and would explain why in my current game Odessa still holds after 10+ attacks assuming that my opponent has his units on refit.

[eskuche]

I’ve only played v12. Just toggle your klm hotkeys for the unit modes and you see the change immediately.

[Bozo_the_Clown]

I’ve only played v12. Just toggle your klm hotkeys for the unit modes and you see the change immediately.

Indeed, I just did that. Crazy that I haven't noticed this in my current game. I am one of those players who have units permanently on refit. Explains why my Russian troops are digging so slow. [:D]

[eskuche]

Same. You'll also probably notice a marked increase your fort construction for your spearheads. At least until this hopefully gets patched in 12.05.

[joelmar]

In 1.11.03 changing the mode didn't change the construction value in the uni window. That is a new feature.

[eskuche]

Thanks joelmar. That helps narrow it down to this change in v12.00.

16. Engineer value will be now reduced to 25% for units in reserve. I suspect it's a simple indexing error.

[joelmar]

Ho, it did change the construction value in 1.11.03, what I mean is that it didn't show in the unit window when you changed the mode so no way to know what construction value you really had after moving and mod changes.

For engineer values, they weren't shown at all in the unit window. You had to deduce them. And I don't remember the mode affecting that, neither did movement to the best of my knowledge.

anyway, this looks like a bug, at least for the display.

[eskuche]

Guess we will have to wait for Denniss or Morvael input.

[Bozo_the_Clown]

Yikes, I just tested it with a German unit on turn 1 and 2. Same fortification level with Ready and Reserve and only 25% or less on Refit.

0.54 (Ready or Reserve)
0.12 (Refit)

That's even less than 25%. [&:]

[eskuche]

Don't read too much into that. Lots of rounding. For level 1 fort, you need 16.67 construction points, so each point gives you 6%. Here, you have .12 = 2 construction points, vs 0.54 = 9 construction points. Either CP is rounded and/or construction brigades are helping.

[Bozo_the_Clown]

Thanks, that makes sense

Don't read too much into that. Lots of rounding. For level 1 fort, you need 16.67 construction points, so each point gives you 6%. Here, you have .12 = 2 construction points, vs 0.54 = 9 construction points. Either CP is rounded and/or construction brigades are helping.

[redrum68]

Nice catch. Though I do wonder if its impacting SUs as well as you point out.

[Bozo_the_Clown]

Nice catch. Though I do wonder if its impacting SUs as well as you point out.

It seems to have a dramatic impact on the Engineering value in the combat report. Not so much on the Artillery value. I have tested it multiple times.

[eskuche]

What is the infantry division's organic artillery? Maybe it doesn't affect SUs after all then.

[Bozo_the_Clown]

Engineering is 33 and Artillery is 4

[eskuche]

Oh, right I forgot. Engineering and artillery values have a roll. The values on the left are also multiplied by the square root of the CV. They are also adjusted for fort level. So to really analyze, you need to hover over the Fort change due to engineering and artillery and do a lot more runs if you really wanted to "solve" the issue before devs can address it.

What I mean by adjusted for fort level is that if you're attacking a fort level 4.10 and drop it to 4.00, the engineering value will show 5, which is the engineering value required to drop a fort level by 10% = 5 x 2% per point. However, this actually represents 100 engineering points because it is a level 4 fort and has the x20 multiplier for both building and destroying. Because the value is linearized even across fort levels, the actual value is kind of confusing especially when rolls are considered.

An example of the linearization: if you dropped from 4.10 to 2.90, I believe the engineering value would show 5 (4.10 to 4.00) + 50 (4.00 to 3.00) + 5 (3.00 to 2.90) = 60. However, the actual engineering value brought would have been 5 x 20 (for level 4) + 50 x 4 (for level 3) + 5 x 2 (for level 2) = 310 actual engineering.

[Bozo_the_Clown]

SUs are not affected but the engineering value of the unit is permanently lowered on refit. This is a game buster. You can now put your entire army on reserve and get the benefits of digging and reserve activation.

[BrianG]

Ive done a lot of digging lately.

I think the construction is working correctly.

As you adjust the units from refit to reserve etc, i see the far left construction number changing. Most are 1 for units on refit.

Although that is not a test of actual results.