TOS: WS patch

LarkinVB · Post by **LarkinVB** » Thu Sep 18, 2003 11:35 am

As usual the patch will take longer than expected. I'm pretty sure though that it will be ready before october.

Question : Should the flamer be toned down a bit ? Options are damage, recycle time and /or to hit bonus.

AStott · Post by **AStott** » Thu Sep 18, 2003 5:42 pm

My gut feeling is that the damage could be toned down a little, but I'm not entirely sure I have enough experience to be taken seriously on this issue...

tarendelcymir · Post by **tarendelcymir** » Thu Sep 18, 2003 6:09 pm

I'm not sure that it really needs any toning down. At the most, maybe increase the recycle time a little. I think the fact that's it's only really effective at point blank range is enough limitation as is.

Rebel Yell · Post by **Rebel Yell** » Thu Sep 18, 2003 7:49 pm

I also don't think they need any adjustment. The only real problem with them is a situation where someone abused them.

For instance, for a tournament equip your squad with 8 fast flamer boats and you would be extremely hard to beat unless the terrain was wide open.

LarkinVB · Post by **LarkinVB** » Thu Sep 18, 2003 9:54 pm

Rebel Yell wrote:I also don't think they need any adjustment. The only real problem with them is a situation where someone abused them.

For instance, for a tournament equip your squad with 8 fast flamer boats and you would be extremely hard to beat unless the terrain was wide open.

Ok. This is true for all weapons with minimum/maximum ranges and can't be a reason for changing weapon balance. Weapon balance should ALWAYS be based on multi purpose mixed teams of medium+ size and medium skill at standard terrain. Are you sure 8 flamer boats will succeed at this setup. If still yes the flamer might be too strong.

Rebel Yell · Post by **Rebel Yell** » Thu Sep 18, 2003 10:22 pm

LarkinVB wrote:Ok. This is true for all weapons with minimum/maximum ranges and can't be a reason for changing weapon balance. Weapon balance should ALWAYS be based on multi purpose mixed teams of medium+ size and medium skill at standard terrain. Are you sure 8 flamer boats will succeed at this setup. If still yes the flamer might be too strong.

In standard terrain, yes I think all flamers would be very difficult to beat. Maybe you kill a couple on the run in but once they are on you, a titan dies or shuts down every recycle.

Like anything, if you knew it were coming, tactics could make it hard, like defense in depth, if terrain allows, but it was just an example of an extreme.

I think flamers are fine, I just don't much use 'em. I like range and finesse over flame and punch anyday.

Thorgrim · Post by **Thorgrim** » Thu Sep 18, 2003 10:40 pm

Did you count shield, polar, water,... ?
Will you maneuver to have all 8 attack at the same time?
What weight class are you talking here? How many flamers per titan?

LarkinVB · Post by **LarkinVB** » Thu Sep 18, 2003 10:48 pm

Rebel Yell wrote:In standard terrain, yes I think all flamers would be very difficult to beat. Maybe you kill a couple on the run in but once they are on you, a titan dies or shuts down every recycle.

We are talking about medium+ sized teams. 4 flamers won't kill my heavy with heat A at all. If all do hit they do about 50C heat every 7 seconds and my heavy will reduce at least 30C during this time. So it will NOT shut down and die every recycle. Add a shield and it will be less. Nevertheless I'm thinking about 6 damage which will reduce heat too.

Silvermane · Post by **Silvermane** » Thu Sep 18, 2003 11:25 pm

I think it's fine as it is; the flamer has already enough drawbacks in form of verly little (and highly volatile!) ammo per slot and extremely short range. Toning down the heating effect would kill it, IMHO.

This whole "flamer boat" equation misses the fact that after approximately one dead titan, your ammo stores are likely to be almost depleted. The only type of tweaking I could agree to is lengthening the recycle time to 8 or 9 seconds. The rest is fine with me.

-Silvermane

Rebel Yell · Post by **Rebel Yell** » Thu Sep 18, 2003 11:54 pm

As I said, this was an extreme example, but if we must debate it further, you won't be getting hit with 4 flamers, you'll be taking something like 12 to 24

depending on how many are going after 1 or if the squad is attacking two separate targets. And, under those circumstances, heat A or not, down you go. Only round of ammo used per flamer, next target please!

Thorgrim · Post by **Thorgrim** » Fri Sep 19, 2003 12:11 am

Build a special squad and try it.

Sleeping_Dragon · Post by **Sleeping_Dragon** » Fri Sep 19, 2003 2:04 am

ok.. the power has stopped flickering enough I can post agian.. stupid hurricane!

I think the Flammer should be left 'as-is' for now..

If used in multiples, Flammers can be VERY deadly vs a titan with a small heat reg and can severly restrict the retailiation options of even a titan with heat reg A. However, the restrictions placed on them are fairly substantial; low ammo, poor range, and double damage from exploding ammo (mesons anyone?), etc... But to get your moneys worth out of them they have to be used in multiples, else you're typically far better off using an AC7. These are probably one of the most difficult weapons to balance.. it's almost an all or nothing affair; you get in a position to use them effectively or your burdened with signifigant amounts of wasted space/tonnage and are carrying around a volitale liablily; so with those drawbacks they had better work wonders when you can use them. If you reduce the heat they 'provide' the oppontent, I feel that thier usefulness may cross a threshold where they are no longer an overly viable weapon choice. Increaseing their recycle is broadly like reducing there heating capability. The 7 damage.. well... I rarely cared, if I just wanted damage at close range your MUCH better of with MGs. The damage is good, but it's not usually the real killer. IMO, it should stay the same to balance the drawbacks, but if the forum and developers deside its unbalancing then drop the damage, but keep the heat as is. I know Larking will cringe when he reads that since it makes a change in the heat calculations and would require additional codework.

Voidhawk · Post by **Voidhawk** » Sat Sep 20, 2003 9:59 pm

Hey Dragon, we made it (I'm right next to you in Knightdale)! No more hurricanes this year hopefully.

My power just came back on late yesterday, but not much time to play ToS because I'm still trying to get all the branches and junk cleaned up from my yard.

I think the flamer is just fine as it is, for the reasons already mentioned by other posters.

Sleeping_Dragon · Post by **Sleeping_Dragon** » Sun Sep 21, 2003 12:05 am

Voidhawk wrote:Hey Dragon, we made it (I'm right next to you in Knightdale)! No more hurricanes this year hopefully.

My power just came back on late yesterday, but not much time to play ToS because I'm still trying to get all the branches and junk cleaned up from my yard.

Yep, lucked out this time, only lost power for an hour here, but it flickered all afternoon making posting difficult. Good thing it wasn't like Fran... would have been hard going a couple days without ToS

I always find forums amazing.. meet people from all over the world, 6 billion people to choose from, but invariably run into people that live within spitting distance to you, even on smaller forums.

BTW. where did you pick up your copy of ToS:WS.. I had a bit of a time tracking it down in Raleigh?

Voidhawk · Post by **Voidhawk** » Sun Sep 21, 2003 1:10 pm

I got mine from the CompUSA on Glenwood. They didn't even have them on the shelves when I got there, even though I had called earlier and been told they had it in stock. So I had to pester one of the friendly customer service folks into fetching it for me from the stock room.

I went back a couple days later to pick up a HDD, and they still hadn't put either ToS or Korsun on the shelves.

You gotta stay on top of those slackers!

Thorgrim · Post by **Thorgrim** » Sun Sep 21, 2003 3:55 pm

LarkinVB wrote:Question : Should the flamer be toned down a bit ? Options are damage, recycle time and /or to hit bonus.

How about not being able to call shots with them? Or losing the to hit bonus when doing so.
I think they're fine.

LarkinVB · Post by **LarkinVB** » Sun Sep 21, 2003 4:15 pm

You can't call shots with them. I think about adding +1 sec to recycle, also think about reducing Vibra recycle to 9, placing it between power axe and chainsaw.

Sleeping_Dragon · Post by **Sleeping_Dragon** » Sun Sep 21, 2003 6:08 pm

Voidhawk wrote:I got mine from the CompUSA on Glenwood. They didn't even have them on the shelves when I got there, even though I had called earlier and been told they had it in stock. So I had to pester one of the friendly customer service folks into fetching it for me from the stock room.

That sound almost EXACTLY like may story with them! I used thier website to make sure the Glenwood store had it in stock, then drove over there. Niether KP ot ToS was on the shelves. Had the poor custermor service people running around in circles for over 30 mins, shelves, stockroom, anywhere. Never found either

but atleast they were nice about it. Probably will end up going back to that store just cause they tried so had to help me out. One thing we found out though, was one lady remembered selling the last copy of KP. Was almost a week later, when I found both on the shelf at the EB on Capital Blvd near the beltline. They had only got in 1 copy of each game.... I bought both, although KP is STILL in the box!.. maybe after they release a patch..

Sleeping_Dragon · Post by **Sleeping_Dragon** » Sun Sep 21, 2003 6:25 pm

LarkinVB wrote: also think about reducing Vibra recycle to 9, placing it between power axe and chainsaw.

Really? I have a hard time choosing between PX, CS, and VC now. Give it a try and let's see what happens.