Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues

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Scar79
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RE: Stickied thread for minor database issues?

Post by Scar79 »

ORIGINAL: KLAB


In the DB3K the S-350 battery is already using the 9M96D 120Km ranged weapon which would make sense if it is a replacement for early versions of the S-300PS.
In the images the missile tubes do appear to be long enough to be the 9M96D.

But REF S350 in service dates and range I was quoting:
Dmitry Fediushko article in same JDW Vol.57. Issue 10 pp12. Dated 26 FEB 2020. 

Of the two versions of the missile there is a consistent reference to the medium range 9M96 having a 60km not 40km range. In the DB3K the 9M96 has a 40km range.
So it begs the question if both the Naval and land based Redut/Vityaz use the 120km 9M96D (or 9M96DM) what's the 60km 9M96 used in?
So I agree that S-350 almost certainly uses the 120km missile but there are anomalies.
K
9M96 is used in the naval SAM Redut(on pr.20380 corvettes) and has a range of 40km.
http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-13.html
Scar79
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RE: Stickied thread for minor database issues?

Post by Scar79 »

ORIGINAL: zclark

FYI, the thread header on page 193 of this thread has changed from "RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues" to "Tacview mesh association for French subs."
LMAO I thought you were joking.
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KLAB
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RE: Stickied thread for minor database issues?

Post by KLAB »

Yep when did that header get messed up?
K[:)]
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KLAB
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RE: Stickied thread for minor database issues?

Post by KLAB »

I suspect the difference between the quoted 60km and 40km is just dependant upon what performance criteria and target set the media source is choosing to quote from.

This is heavily dependant on what the target is, 40km for a manoeuvring fighter sized target trying to avoid being hit or 60km for a non manoeuvring larger airframe flying in a straight line.

By default the simulation modelling should ensure that its effective range is not the same as its maximum range so the DB3k could afford to be generous and give the 9M96 credit for 60km.

Its only an opinion and the information in open sources isn't consistent on most missiles performance regardless of their origins anyway.

Regards [:)]
K
ORIGINAL: Scar79

ORIGINAL: KLAB


In the DB3K the S-350 battery is already using the 9M96D 120Km ranged weapon which would make sense if it is a replacement for early versions of the S-300PS.
In the images the missile tubes do appear to be long enough to be the 9M96D.

But REF S350 in service dates and range I was quoting:
Dmitry Fediushko article in same JDW Vol.57. Issue 10 pp12. Dated 26 FEB 2020. 

Of the two versions of the missile there is a consistent reference to the medium range 9M96 having a 60km not 40km range. In the DB3K the 9M96 has a 40km range.
So it begs the question if both the Naval and land based Redut/Vityaz use the 120km 9M96D (or 9M96DM) what's the 60km 9M96 used in?
So I agree that S-350 almost certainly uses the 120km missile but there are anomalies.
K
9M96 is used in the naval SAM Redut(on pr.20380 corvettes) and has a range of 40km.
http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-13.html
Scar79
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RE: Stickied thread for minor database issues?

Post by Scar79 »

ORIGINAL: KLAB

I suspect the difference between the quoted 60km and 40km is just dependant upon what performance criteria and target set the media source is choosing to quote from.

This is heavily dependant on what the target is, 40km for a manoeuvring fighter sized target trying to avoid being hit or 60km for a non manoeuvring larger airframe flying in a straight line.

By default the simulation modelling should ensure that its effective range is not the same as its maximum range so the DB3k could afford to be generous and give the 9M96 credit for 60km.

Its only an opinion and the information in open sources isn't consistent on most missiles performance regardless of their origins anyway.

Regards [:)]
K
ORIGINAL: Scar79

ORIGINAL: KLAB


In the DB3K the S-350 battery is already using the 9M96D 120Km ranged weapon which would make sense if it is a replacement for early versions of the S-300PS.
In the images the missile tubes do appear to be long enough to be the 9M96D.

But REF S350 in service dates and range I was quoting:
Dmitry Fediushko article in same JDW Vol.57. Issue 10 pp12. Dated 26 FEB 2020. 

Of the two versions of the missile there is a consistent reference to the medium range 9M96 having a 60km not 40km range. In the DB3K the 9M96 has a 40km range.
So it begs the question if both the Naval and land based Redut/Vityaz use the 120km 9M96D (or 9M96DM) what's the 60km 9M96 used in?
So I agree that S-350 almost certainly uses the 120km missile but there are anomalies.
K
9M96 is used in the naval SAM Redut(on pr.20380 corvettes) and has a range of 40km.
http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-13.html
Range of missiles is always reflecting the max.distance they can fly by the optimal(by energy) trajectory. And 9M96 had 40km in every document and specs.table, since its first presentation at MAKS-1999.
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KLAB
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RE: Stickied thread for minor database issues?

Post by KLAB »

This is the brochure for the system from the manufacturer from MAKS-2013.

I will let you read it and draw your own conclusions.

Regards

K
ORIGINAL: Scar79

ORIGINAL: KLAB

I suspect the difference between the quoted 60km and 40km is just dependant upon what performance criteria and target set the media source is choosing to quote from.

This is heavily dependant on what the target is, 40km for a manoeuvring fighter sized target trying to avoid being hit or 60km for a non manoeuvring larger airframe flying in a straight line.

By default the simulation modelling should ensure that its effective range is not the same as its maximum range so the DB3k could afford to be generous and give the 9M96 credit for 60km.

Its only an opinion and the information in open sources isn't consistent on most missiles performance regardless of their origins anyway.

Regards [:)]
K
ORIGINAL: Scar79



9M96 is used in the naval SAM Redut(on pr.20380 corvettes) and has a range of 40km.
http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-13.html
Range of missiles is always reflecting the max.distance they can fly by the optimal(by energy) trajectory. And 9M96 had 40km in every document and specs.table, since its first presentation at MAKS-1999.


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Scar79
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RE: Stickied thread for minor database issues?

Post by Scar79 »

ORIGINAL: KLAB

This is the brochure for the system from the manufacturer from MAKS-2013.

I will let you read it and draw your own conclusions.

Regards

K
ORIGINAL: Scar79

ORIGINAL: KLAB

I suspect the difference between the quoted 60km and 40km is just dependant upon what performance criteria and target set the media source is choosing to quote from.

This is heavily dependant on what the target is, 40km for a manoeuvring fighter sized target trying to avoid being hit or 60km for a non manoeuvring larger airframe flying in a straight line.

By default the simulation modelling should ensure that its effective range is not the same as its maximum range so the DB3k could afford to be generous and give the 9M96 credit for 60km.

Its only an opinion and the information in open sources isn't consistent on most missiles performance regardless of their origins anyway.

Regards [:)]
K

Range of missiles is always reflecting the max.distance they can fly by the optimal(by energy) trajectory. And 9M96 had 40km in every document and specs.table, since its first presentation at MAKS-1999.


Image
This is export version of Vityaz, while we're talking about the version for VKS. As you can see, this poster mentions 9M96E2 missile, which is an export version of 9M96D missile.
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KLAB
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RE: Stickied thread for minor database issues?

Post by KLAB »

ORIGINAL: Scar79
ORIGINAL: KLAB

This is the brochure for the system from the manufacturer from MAKS-2013.

I will let you read it and draw your own conclusions.

Regards

K
ORIGINAL: Scar79



Range of missiles is always reflecting the max.distance they can fly by the optimal(by energy) trajectory. And 9M96 had 40km in every document and specs.table, since its first presentation at MAKS-1999.


Image
This is export version of Vityaz, while we're talking about the version for VKS. As you can see, this poster mentions 9M96E2 missile, which is an export version of 9M96D missile.
Almaz Antey product data page for the 9M96E2 with.... 120km range.
I give up in a state of total bafflement.... K😏


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CV60
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RE: Stickied thread for minor database issues?

Post by CV60 »

CWDB Facility_557 (AN/FPS-30 radar) is listed as operating in the "D" band. This is incorrect. According to

https://www.radartutorial.eu/19.kartei/ ... 95.en.html

it operated at 570-630 MHz, which translates into the NATO B/C-Band or IEEE UHF-Band
“Do I not destroy my enemies when I make them my friends?” -Abraham Lincoln
Scar79
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RE: Stickied thread for minor database issues?

Post by Scar79 »

ORIGINAL: KLAB
Almaz Antey product data page for the 9M96E2 with.... 120km range.
I give up in a state of total bafflement.... K😏
Maybe because it's a missile's specs, not the complex'? 9M96 is a family of missiles common for many SAMs, land or naval, domestic and export. It can be used with land systems S-400(E) and S-350(E), as well as with naval systems Redut and Polyment-Redut.

But, of course, this is just a guess.
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CV60
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RE: Stickied thread for minor database issues?

Post by CV60 »

CWDB Facility_1756, 1768, 145, 813, 3223, 1766, 139, (AN/FPS-6A and -6B radars) are listed as having a range of 200 nm. According to US Army. M 11-487C-1 MILITARY STANDARDIZATION HANDBOOK UNITED STATES RADAR EQUIPMENT. 1965. (Available at http://www.nj7p.org/Manuals/PDFs/Milita ... 0USAPA.pdf ) that while the earlier AN/FPS-6 had a range of 200 nm, the -6A and -6B radars had maximum ranges of 300 nm.

In the DB3000 database, the AN/FPS-6A/B radars are Facility_1148, 1147 and 1144. These entries also incorrectly show a maximum range of 200 nm.
“Do I not destroy my enemies when I make them my friends?” -Abraham Lincoln
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KLAB
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RE: Stickied thread for minor database issues?

Post by KLAB »

96LP-VP sensor Ref the S-350. I found a graphic referring to the passive locator devices. It is backed up by the images in the video previously referred to from which a still is attached of the sensor array.
Essentially Cheese Board appears to have a passive target locator sensor which presumably when used with three or more units for triangulation would give any active radar missile from the S-400/500/350 a lock on after launch radar silent targeting capability.
K

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KLAB
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RE: Stickied thread for minor database issues?

Post by KLAB »

ORIGINAL: KLAB
96L6-VP sensor.
Ref the S-350. I found this graphic referring to the passive locator devices. It is backed up by the images in the video previously referred to.
Essentially Cheese Board appears to have a passive target locator sensor which presumably would give any active radar missile from the S-400/500/350 a lock on after launch radar silent targeting capability.
K

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TheOriginalOverlord
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RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues

Post by TheOriginalOverlord »

ORIGINAL: TheOriginalOverlord

Could we get CA 134 Des Moines #139 and #2590 brought over to the DB3000 from CWDB? These cruisers were in reserve until the early 1990s and were under consideration for being recommissioned.


Thanks!!
#2590 made it in..
could you add in #139 (USS Des Moines as it entered mothballs in late 50's) and #1615 is the USS Newport News as she was in the early 70's after duty off Vietnam right before she was mothballed.

Many thanks
Semper Fi!

Jeremy

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Blast33
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RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues

Post by Blast33 »

Here are some F-35 planned upgrades for Lot 15.
Lot 14 will last till december 2022, so Lot-15 should start in 2023
Source

The planned upgrade for the F-35C as mentioned by the US Navy is this:

-The 6x AMRAAM is in available CMO but only as of 2025. So an earlier timeline to 2023 would be precise.
-Could also a loadout be designed for the mentioned AARGM-ER missiles in the article?
Thank you for your persistent upgrades [:)]

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FTBSS
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RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues

Post by FTBSS »

Can we update the FFGX to be the contract winner Fremm modified FFGX applicant with basically it looks to be a Fremm with the 32 cell mk41 launcher (mini aegis/EASR) with 16 jasm and the 57mm mount hanger room for 2 mh-60r.

https://news.usni.org/2020/04/30/fincan ... te-program.

It appears to be a Fremm hull version of the Burke blk III from everything I have read.
Scar79
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RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues

Post by Scar79 »

Surprized, and probably other people already pointed at these mistakes in DB, but all S-400 units have wrong radars and specs.

96L6(letter E in the end is only for export versions, BTW) is not a default radar of S-400. It's an optional all-altitude radar-detector("всевысотный обнаружитель"). Instead of this should be a 92N6(E) fire-control radar. And 91N6(E) is not a FCR, but observation radar. Dear developers, please, check the illustrations below, for correct designations and specs of both radars, because 215nm of instrumented range for observation radar of the SAM with 216nm missiles just don't make any sense. And again, don't forget that only export versions have E in the end of their designations. Cmon, guys, this is a premier SAM of your lovely OpFor, after all. Let's make it looking more or less plausable. [:)]

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stilesw
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RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues

Post by stilesw »

Can we update the FFGX to be the contract winner Fremm modified FFGX applicant with basically it looks to be a Fremm with the 32 cell mk41 launcher (mini aegis/EASR) with 16 jasm and the 57mm mount hanger room for 2 mh-60r.
Yes, in the works.
-WS
“There is no limit to what a man can do so long as he does not care a straw who gets the credit for it.”

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~Disenchantment, ch. 15 (1922)
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CV60
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RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues

Post by CV60 »

Surprized, and probably other people already pointed at these mistakes in DB, but all S-400 units have wrong radars and specs.

96L6(letter E in the end is only for export versions, BTW) is not a default radar of S-400. It's an optional all-altitude radar-detector("всевысотный обнаружитель"). Instead of this should be a 92N6(E) fire-control radar. And 91N6(E) is not a FCR, but observation radar. Dear developers, please, check the illustrations below, for correct designations and specs of both radars, because 215nm of instrumental range for observation radar of the SAM with 216nm missiles just don't make any sense. And again, don't forget that only export versions have E in the end of their designations. Cmon, guys, this is a premier SAM of your lovely OpFor, after all. Let's make it looking more or less plausable.

Couple of points: I'm not one of the developers. But, I spend A LOT of time writing some of the description files you find in the game. The developers and community have, since 2013 spent a lot of time doing open source research on well over 10,000 systems in just the DB3K data base. Unsurprisingly, given that information is frequently classified, the information they have is incomplete or non-existent. In most cases, it is simply contradictory, with multiple sources differing on basic data. So, they do the best with what information they have. Over the years, more information comes out, and the information becomes better. But if you spend the time I and others have checking some of the data, you would be surprised to find the lack of information or contradictory information out there on systems that are 60+ years old, much less relatively new, front line systems. That is why when I do my description files, I include the sources. In your post you seem to imply that there is a lack of diligence and/or competence on the part of the developers because you have found some new unclassified information of the S-400. Possibly I am misreading your post and/or intentions. If so, I apologize. But I can assure you that both the developers and the community are doing, with very limited resources, an outstanding job in correcting and adding to the database.

With that said, it would be helpful if you could post where you got your information from, so it can be better evaluated. Links or bibliographic citations are helpful, as it assists in evaluating the contradictory information that is out there. If it is from a good source, I can assure you that I will personally incorporate it into the description files, and I'm sure the database will be similarly corrected.
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TitaniumTrout
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RE: Thread for DB3000 database problems, updates or issues

Post by TitaniumTrout »

ORIGINAL: CV60

Unsurprisingly, given that information is frequently classified, the information they have is incomplete or non-existent. In most cases, it is simply contradictory, with multiple sources differing on basic data. So, they do the best with what information they have. Over the years, more information comes out, and the information becomes better. But if you spend the time I and others have checking some of the data, you would be surprised to find the lack of information or contradictory information out there on systems that are 60+ years old, much less relatively new, front line systems.

I picked up a bunch of bargain basement weapons guides from the late 80's early 90's and it's really amazing how incomplete or plain wrong a lot of info is. Some of it is coming out of the best available data sets too, Jane's for example. I recently dug into modern Turkish drone technology and just sorting the reality from the prototype from the outright marketing bullshit is tough. There's so much effort in obfuscating what is really happening (especially with Russian capabilities) that I'm amazed the folks who do the DB work can do it all. My hat is off to them.
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