Big B MOD vs DaBabes (MOD) (lite in this case)

[spence]

The Chinese units are different in these two mods. Attached to this and the next post are two views of the same unit. First the 2nd Army Corps near Ichang at start:

[Nomad]

fixxed

[spence]

This is the Big B Mod for the same unit near Ichang.



YOu got to give me a moment at least to upload the correct file. Notice the two "different" units start the scenario (GC) in the same hex and have the same commander.

So in general the Big B Mod has considerably stronger Chinese units (although it divides the Chinese Army into 3 different groupings (some mobile and others not)). Notice the 150 mm mortars, the improved readiness of the MMGs, etc.,a considerably stronger Chinese unit that can compete with Japanese divisions, even with armored (tin foil tank) support.

[Yaab]

Well, different modders have different ideas for Chinese TOE and order of battle. You may also want to try RHS mod and see how big and varied the Chinese army is in that mod. My biggest problem in China are loopsided battle results. It is as if every Japanese battle victory were a mini-Kiev, with losses 1:10 in Japanese favour. Very few big battles with realistic casualty figures.

[spence]

Well, different modders have different ideas for Chinese TOE and order of battle

I personally don't have much access to records of what the Chinese had or lacked weapon-wise. Are the records of the time so bad as to allow Modders to have just opinions about the Chinese TOE/OOB?

I have to say that I am of the opinion that the Japanese would not have declared war on the US/UK in order to beat China if they were able to beat China. They spent 4 years trying and failed to generate anything better than a stalemate.

[Yaab]

Yes,they did stalemate, but you have to remember the relative numbers. IJA had 400,000 men in China in 1941, while IJA's total peak strength was 6,000,000 in August 1945. I reckon there was no political will between 1937-1941 to go total war on China, and send 1,000,000 men instead of 400,000 men.

[spence]

I reckon there was no political will between 1937-1941 to go total war on China,

According to 'Forgotten Ally' (US title)/ China's War With Japan (UK title) the Chinese lost 14 million people in WW2 including about 3.5 million military dead. In what way does Japan's effort seem to be less than total?

[inqistor]

ORIGINAL: spence

Well, different modders have different ideas for Chinese TOE and order of battle

I personally don't have much access to records of what the Chinese had or lacked weapon-wise. Are the records of the time so bad as to allow Modders to have just opinions about the Chinese TOE/OOB?

I have to say that I am of the opinion that the Japanese would not have declared war on the US/UK in order to beat China if they were able to beat China. They spent 4 years trying and failed to generate anything better than a stalemate.

There wasn't that much real Divisions in Chinese Army. Most of those forces were raised by local Warlords, they definitely didn't have training in infantry tactics, and I doubt they had much automatic weapons (and no artillery at all). Those were units consisting of local thugs, and they didn't have means to provide supply outside their province, so they shouldn't be able to move far from their Bases.
Also, those Warlords weren't controlled by Chiang Kai-shek, they frequently negotiated with Japan Commanders directly to remain neutral, or even join forces.
Remember about Operation Ichi-Go. If Japan wanted, they could amass enough troops, and just outmaneuver static Chinese defenses. China could only provide static defense. As I recall, there was no factory producing artillery in China in 1942 already. All they could muster was some light mortars.

[jdsrae]

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Yes,they did stalemate, but you have to remember the relative numbers. IJA had 400,000 men in China in 1941, while IJA's total peak strength was 6,000,000 in August 1945. I reckon there was no political will between 1937-1941 to go total war on China, and send 1,000,000 men instead of 400,000 men.

I feel it was something like that too, perhaps relatively strong political power of the Kwantung Army compared to the CEA?
The KA were able to keep so many A grade divisions on the Soviet border until 1944, despite the Emperor berating GEN Hata in mid 1941 for his predictions of quick success in China even before then!
We see a unified IJA in game, as the internal politics, factions, inter-personal rivalries between GENs are not modelled.

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: spence

Well, different modders have different ideas for Chinese TOE and order of battle

I personally don't have much access to records of what the Chinese had or lacked weapon-wise. Are the records of the time so bad as to allow Modders to have just opinions about the Chinese TOE/OOB?

I have to say that I am of the opinion that the Japanese would not have declared war on the US/UK in order to beat China if they were able to beat China. They spent 4 years trying and failed to generate anything better than a stalemate.

In more than 10 years of peddling this nonsense you have never learnt anything.

The Japanese never attempted to defeat China. It was never their goal to do so. You just need a cursory glance at the political structure which was put in place in China and the decision makers involved to see that.

Japan had largely accomplished its goals in China well before 7 Dec 1941. It was the American actions pre Pearl Harbor, actions which would have unravelled what Japan had achieved since the Marco Polo incident, that goaded Japan to strike in order to maintain its position in China.

Alfred

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: spence

I reckon there was no political will between 1937-1941 to go total war on China,

According to 'Forgotten Ally' (US title)/ China's War With Japan (UK title) the Chinese lost 14 million people in WW2 including about 3.5 million military dead. In what way does Japan's effort seem to be less than total?

In the sense that Chinese civilian casualties were overwhelmingly the result of deliberate KMT decisions. Why do you think the Communists won the Civil War after 1945. It wasn't due to their military prowess.

Alfred

[spence]

Oh you're absolutely right Alfred. I just feel so small. We're all so lucky that Japan didn't really decide to conquer the whole world after they achieved all their goals in China and declared war on the rest of the world.