FI Jeager Bicycle MG?

[risto.nikula]

Hello.

I finished a book this weekend (aavekomppania / Hemmo O Hakkarainen, Karisto), that told the story of one particular bicycle company. Issue is that they had one MG platoon, and that got my intrest. Book didnt say wether they had bicycles like the rest or not. (is it possible to carry a MG on bicycle?)

I searched some other books but i didnt get confirmation to my doubts.
So, Can anyone tell me did finnish have a bicyle MGs?

if they had bicycles, shouldnt they be added to finnish oob. Also according to books (not only this one) bicycle jeagers had also LMG with sqd, but in current oob sqd has rifle+smg+molotov/sachel+grenade equipment, (another thing a add to oob).


- Confused Roger

[ June 20, 2001: Message edited by: Jolly Roger ]

[Larry Holt]

I can't say about WWII Finnish bicycles but current Swiss bicycles have MG monts.

[risto.nikula]

Hello Larry.

I didnt know that Swiss have bicycle forces, thanks for the shread of information Larry. Like i always say, One must learn something new every day.
(and it is much that one can learn by reading topics here in matrix )

I think that modern MGs probably weight less than finnish
WWII MGs, That were about 20-30kg, and took more space .

[ June 20, 2001: Message edited by: Jolly Roger ]

[Larry Holt]

Originally posted by Jolly Roger:
Hello Larry.

I didnt know that Swiss have bicycle forces, thanks for the shread of information Larry. Like i always say, One must learn something new every day.
(and it is much that one can learn by reading topics here in matrix )
[snip]

[ June 20, 2001: Message edited by: Jolly Roger ]

I posted the full story in the old SPMW forum, the Swiss bike units are popular with athletes for training. The Swiss are thinking of disbanding them as they seem to have limited utility in modern warfare.

[Belisarius]

The british experimented with machine guns on bicycles in the late 19th century, and I think some were used in the Boer War. (Although they seemed to be 8-wheeled??!)

However, included in the 1939 Polish Infantry division were, in fact, a bicycle company armed with 7.62 mm LMG's.

I found a book on this issue, The Bicycle in Wartime: An Illustrated History

Jim Fitzpatrick
Brassey's, Inc.
1998
ISBN 1-57488-157-4

Doesn't seem to be a heavyweight work, but covers at least the use if bicycles in British and German WWII forces to some extent.

[panda124c]

Originally posted by Belisarius:
The british experimented with machine guns on bicycles in the late 19th century, and I think some were used in the Boer War. (Although they seemed to be 8-wheeled??!)

However, included in the 1939 Polish Infantry division were, in fact, a bicycle company armed with 7.62 mm LMG's.

I found a book on this issue, The Bicycle in Wartime: An Illustrated History

Jim Fitzpatrick
Brassey's, Inc.
1998
ISBN 1-57488-157-4

Doesn't seem to be a heavyweight work, but covers at least the use if bicycles in British and German WWII forces to some extent.

I think I have read this book, the forward or something like that is by Martin Cadin. It starts with the advantages of the bicycle as a military method of transport. Starts with the German use in WWI in their last offensive where they straped Maxim MGs to the frames and infiltrated the French line to capture a bridge well behind the lines. And ends with the bicycles use in Vietnam. It actualy reads like a Masters Thesis put out in book form. It was a little thin but it covered a long period of history. The main advantages were you don't have to feed the bicycle, it does not use fuel, no special skills required to operate, it's easy to repair, can carry a fair amount of equipment and you can cover 20 mile in a day and not be to tired to still fight a battle.

I don't know if you could call the British contraption a bicycle, maybe a manpowered octocycle. Ah, goverment design offices 'if two is good then eight is four times better'


Most countries had bicycle units in their Armies with the exception of the US (Henry Ford made motor transportation cheaper) and possibly Russia (not the sort of thing that fits into a 5 year plan).

[ June 20, 2001: Message edited by: pbear ]

[m10bob]

During the thirties,the Japanese army in China was using a lashup to carry a hmg between 2 bikes.(Might have been bamboo or metal,could not tell from photos i've seen and i do not remember where i saw them,but i do know the VC were using a similar contraption in southeast asia in the 50's,60's....i do not think it was intended to be fired from the bikes,but purely transportation.......

[Belisarius]

Yup, and the Japanese conquest of Malaya is famous for its use of bicycle infantry...did catch the British by surprise (but then again, during that campaign - what didn't? )

So - let's give the Finnish Jaegers w/ bicycles some machineguns!

[risto.nikula]

i did some studies during weekend and discovered that MGs were indeed (in finland)transported by bicycle trapping them around bike chassis.
(thus, Bicycle MGs should be added to oob)

I tried to fix up some kind of PP (PolkuPyörä - bicycle in finnish) MG with the oob editor, but it doesnt work out wery well - i had to make them either bicycle infantry armed with MG or machine gun with 20 moves. but either one works well.

Bicycle infantry MG messes up the buy menu and MG with 20 moves moves 20 moves (funny) everywhere, not just in roads(bicycles should be slower in forest or such).

[ June 25, 2001: Message edited by: Jolly Roger ]

[panda124c]

Originally posted by Jolly Roger:
i did some studies during weekend and discovered that MGs were indeed (in finland)transported by bicycle trapping them around bike chassis.
(thus, Bicycle MGs should be added to oob)

I tried to fix up some kind of PP (PolkuPyörä - bicycle in finnish) MG with the oob editor, but it doesnt work out wery well - i had to make them either bicycle infantry armed with MG or machine gun with 20 moves. but either one works well.

Bicycle infantry MG messes up the buy menu and MG with 20 moves moves 20 moves (funny) everywhere, not just in roads(bicycles should be slower in forest or such).

[ June 25, 2001: Message edited by: Jolly Roger ]

Please note that the use of bicycles was to provide a stratigic movement capability to non-motorized infantry. Bicycle Infantry was never intended to fight from or with bicycles, they were just a way to get there that was much less tiring and quicker than marching. Strapping an MG to the bicycle frame does not make it a mount for an MG (the bike frame tends to get in the way of the operation of the MG, not to mention the recoil effects).

And before anyone brings up motocycles, the German motocyclist were trained to charge while mounted and quickly dismount to fight. Reducing the time they were exposed to fire.

[ June 25, 2001: Message edited by: pbear ]

[sven]

Originally posted by pbear:

Please note that the use of bicyles was to provide a stratigic movement capability to non-motorized infantry. Bicycle Infantry was never intended to fight from or with bicycles, they were just a way to get there that was much less tiring and quicker than marching.
And before anyone brings up motocycles, the German motocyclist were trained to charge while mounted and quickly dismount to fight. Reducing the time they were exposed to fire.

Darn.... no 'Charge of the Huffy Brigade'?



sven

[JTGEN]

Agree. And this is why I do not use bicycle troops. Game engine can not change those units that do make distance in road fast back to normal Jägers when they come under fire. It is important to get fast into the battlezone, but once there the bicycle is left aside during battle. So the use in game is not wery realistic.

[risto.nikula]

Strapping an MG to the bicycle frame does not make it a mount for an MG (the bike frame tends to get in the way of the operation of the MG, not to mention the recoil effects).

Just to straight things up:
Never, not even in my wildest dreams, have i thought of firing MG while on bicycle or to use bicycle in anything but transportition - mounting MG (or any other weapon) on bicycle has never even crossed my mind.

the German motocyclist were trained to charge while mounted and quickly dismount to fight

must not forget that german uset MG34 and 42 were designed to cover the need for both heavy and light machinegun, so they were much lighter than old maxims and overall easier to use.

Game engine can not change those units that do make distance in road fast back to normal Jägers when they come under
fire. It is important to get fast into the battlezone, but once there the bicycle is left aside during battle. So the use in
game is not wery realistic.

I totally agree.
Bicycles should be separate transport vehicle with no crew, but that would be impossible for engine to handle. It is true that bicycle troops are not very "sexy" toys to play with.

The reason for me chewing this matter is that i am fan of historical accuracy,, and finland (or any other country) not having
something that they had in real-life is not acceptable.(picture US without bazookas or german without tigers...)

I fully recognize the limitations of the engine, my feet are at the ground. Im not saying that Matrix should add "kauramoottori" MGs to the
"official" version of SPWAW. I have intrest in making my own oob as realistic as possible, and since bicycles were - due the fuel shortage and the fact that there simply were no money - probably as (or more) important means of transportation as
trucks and such to the finnish forces in WWII.

[ June 26, 2001: Message edited by: Jolly Roger ]

[panda124c]

Originally posted by sven:


Darn.... no 'Charge of the Huffy Brigade'?



sven

Oh what next 'The Walker Brigade'