Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition
ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
The 1957 flu that killed one million people
In 1957 a new strain of avian flu emerged in East Asia and quickly spread around the world, killing at least one million people.
Sumi Krishna was nine years old when she caught the virus in India.
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/stories-525 ... ion-people
warspite1ORIGINAL: HansBolter
Damn am I glad I took a few steps back for a while.
Watching you all take pot shots at each other is actually rather entertaining.
Well, time to wade back in.
A quick thrust at all you Eurosocialists damning the US for not implementing nation wide orders.....
So ALL of the European continent implemented the same imperial edict orders and followed them?
Many of our states are three times the size of many of your nations...........yet is is OK for your individual nations to go their own ways....but not for our states?
My what hypocrites you all are.
ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
Media Outlets Mislead Readers about COVID-19 Data
By A. G. Hamilton
May 7, 2020
The public overwhelmingly relies on the press to provide them with accurate information and proper context. When it comes to COVID-19, many press outlets are consistently failing to do that. In fact, the reporting on data related to the epidemic has increasingly led to conclusions that aren’t accurate and an audience that is misinformed.
The perfect example was an article from The Hill that told readers Texas was seeing “thousands of new coronavirus cases days after state’s stay-at-home order lifted.” Seems rather obvious that The Hill started with a view that moving into a re-opening phase is a mistake and things are getting worse, and then looked for a way to support that conclusion. This claim managed to mislead readers in two key ways:
(1) Given the incubation period and a lag in testing, new cases that are identified on a certain day are unlikely to have any relationship to policies implemented days earlier.
(2) “New cases” is a very misleading metric because it does not account for increases in testing. The rate of positive tests in Texas has declined significantly.
Mainstream outlets have attempted to tie new cases and deaths to recent re-opening actions in Florida, Georgia, and Texas, despite it being clear that any spike in cases or deaths would not be apparent for weeks after such policy changes. Such actions could lead to a spike in new cases, but trying to tie them to those seen right now is clearly incorrect.
https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/c ... term=third
ORIGINAL: warspite1
warspite1ORIGINAL: HansBolter
Damn am I glad I took a few steps back for a while.
Watching you all take pot shots at each other is actually rather entertaining.
Well, time to wade back in.
A quick thrust at all you Eurosocialists damning the US for not implementing nation wide orders.....
So ALL of the European continent implemented the same imperial edict orders and followed them?
Many of our states are three times the size of many of your nations...........yet is is OK for your individual nations to go their own ways....but not for our states?
My what hypocrites you all are.
If he read something (or even thought he read something – the facts of the matter weren’t that important to him) that he didn’t like and was written by a European, Osterhaut/Symon/JWE used to often refer to them as EuroNazis [:(].
Well I guess Eurosocialists is a little less harsh (depending on one’s politics [;)]), but why the ‘Eurosocialists’ appendage in any case? Do you have it on some clear authority that lockdown/limited lockdown/no lockdown is uniformly split along party lines? Splits and factions within various governing parties would suggest otherwise…..
And why the need for a ‘quick thrust at Euro (socialist)’ peans at all given that what you are upset about has been stated by Americans too? Indeed one of the most vociferous on this subject I believe is an American. If you want to take exception to, and argue with, individuals then fine, but to try and label a set of people in such a way doesn’t help. Why do so many of these arguments come down to “my country is better than your country?” What are we 10-years old?
And I won’t ask why would there be an ‘imperial order’ for ‘ALL’ of the European continent (why, in your view, is it right the United States are treated as the United States but a Briton or a German or a Bulgarian or a Norwegian have to be treated as Europeans?). I assume you were just angry and didn’t mean to write something that actually makes no sense and you probably know the answer to.
A genuine question though:
Who (whether American, European or Eurosocialist (whatever that is)) has actually stated on here that the US states acting singularly is wrong, but German Lander (for example) doing the same thing is right? I assume there must be a lot, at least in the European bracket, because you’ve said “my what hypocrites you all are”.
ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
Yes, it would have been smart. Because he is the chief executive of New York state and could have said "We need to do better than that!"
Too bad for me. I can't take bleach for Covid because I'm already taking Windex for Windmill cancer [:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]Actually, it is the state's job. The state's and the local government's job is to protect its citizens from illness, earthquakes, floods, hurricanes, and many other dangers.
As far as bleach in the blood, I am sure that I have had that
ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth
Too bad for me. I can't take bleach for Covid because I'm already taking Windex for Windmill cancer [:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]Actually, it is the state's job. The state's and the local government's job is to protect its citizens from illness, earthquakes, floods, hurricanes, and many other dangers.
As far as bleach in the blood, I am sure that I have had that
; Julia Child
ORIGINAL: obvert
ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
Media Outlets Mislead Readers about COVID-19 Data
By A. G. Hamilton
May 7, 2020
The public overwhelmingly relies on the press to provide them with accurate information and proper context. When it comes to COVID-19, many press outlets are consistently failing to do that. In fact, the reporting on data related to the epidemic has increasingly led to conclusions that aren’t accurate and an audience that is misinformed.
The perfect example was an article from The Hill that told readers Texas was seeing “thousands of new coronavirus cases days after state’s stay-at-home order lifted.” Seems rather obvious that The Hill started with a view that moving into a re-opening phase is a mistake and things are getting worse, and then looked for a way to support that conclusion. This claim managed to mislead readers in two key ways:
(1) Given the incubation period and a lag in testing, new cases that are identified on a certain day are unlikely to have any relationship to policies implemented days earlier.
(2) “New cases” is a very misleading metric because it does not account for increases in testing. The rate of positive tests in Texas has declined significantly.
Mainstream outlets have attempted to tie new cases and deaths to recent re-opening actions in Florida, Georgia, and Texas, despite it being clear that any spike in cases or deaths would not be apparent for weeks after such policy changes. Such actions could lead to a spike in new cases, but trying to tie them to those seen right now is clearly incorrect.
https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/c ... term=third
I don't have time or energy to de-bunk every false or misleading claim from the very biased source you've been quoting from lately. This obviously fits the narrative you'd like to believe and present. It's too bad it's not grounded in objective information and its practises are known to be suspect.
The assertion here of a lagging indicator is correct, of course, but the general assertion that ALL sources of "mainstream" journalism are mis-representing the situation and misleading readers/viewers into thinking that measures have not been effective is blatantly false and misleading itself.
This is a very good instance of using good information to persuade readers of a false or misleading premiss with only partial evidence (citing one article from the Hill, a small source itself, and one data chart from Axios, whatever that is, with a mention but no evidence from the NY Times).
; Julia Child
ORIGINAL: HansBolter
Apologies to Warspite1, and any other nonsocialst bent Europeans, for unintentionally lumping you in with Obvert and mindmessing.
"All of you Eurosocialists" is not a statement meant to be applied in a blanket manner to all Europeans, just all European socialists.
They know who they are.
I believe it was mm who first threw out a self imposed slur of ALL Europeans by referring to you as Eurotrash.
I'm rapidly reaching the limit of my tolerance for Obvert's constant "holier than thou" claims that those who present opposing viewpoints are dong so purely out of emotion, when no one in this thread has evidenced MORE emotion than he.
You seriously need to come down from your self proclaimed 'higher ground".
Your posts are purely driven by the emotion of paranoia. It is evident in EVERYTHING you post.
We all recognize how scared to death you are of returning to work when you see every child as a little germ factory.
ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
You don't like the message so you slur the messenger and the source of the message. How adult of you.
ORIGINAL: warspite1
warspite1ORIGINAL: HansBolter
Damn am I glad I took a few steps back for a while.
Watching you all take pot shots at each other is actually rather entertaining.
Well, time to wade back in.
A quick thrust at all you Eurosocialists damning the US for not implementing nation wide orders.....
So ALL of the European continent implemented the same imperial edict orders and followed them?
Many of our states are three times the size of many of your nations...........yet is is OK for your individual nations to go their own ways....but not for our states?
My what hypocrites you all are.
If he read something (or even thought he read something – the facts of the matter weren’t that important to him) that he didn’t like and was written by a European, Osterhaut/Symon/JWE used to often refer to them as EuroNazis [:(].
Well I guess Eurosocialists is a little less harsh (depending on one’s politics [;)]), but why the ‘Eurosocialists’ appendage in any case? Do you have it on some clear authority that lockdown/limited lockdown/no lockdown is uniformly split along party lines? Splits and factions within various governing parties would suggest otherwise…..
And why the need for a ‘quick thrust at Euro (socialist)’ peans at all given that what you are upset about has been stated by Americans too? Indeed one of the most vociferous on this subject I believe is an American. If you want to take exception to, and argue with, individuals then fine, but to try and label a set of people in such a way doesn’t help. Why do so many of these arguments come down to “my country is better than your country?” What are we 10-years old?
And I won’t ask why would there be an ‘imperial order’ for ‘ALL’ of the European continent (why, in your view, is it right the United States are treated as the United States but a Briton or a German or a Bulgarian or a Norwegian have to be treated as Europeans?). I assume you were just angry and didn’t mean to write something that actually makes no sense and you probably know the answer to.
A genuine question though:
Who (whether American, European or Eurosocialist (whatever that is)) has actually stated on here that the US states acting singularly is wrong, but German Lander (for example) doing the same thing is right? I assume there must be a lot, at least in the European bracket, because you’ve said “my what hypocrites you all are”.
ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
ORIGINAL: obvert
ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
Media Outlets Mislead Readers about COVID-19 Data
By A. G. Hamilton
May 7, 2020
https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/c ... term=third
I don't have time or energy to de-bunk every false or misleading claim from the very biased source you've been quoting from lately. This obviously fits the narrative you'd like to believe and present. It's too bad it's not grounded in objective information and its practises are known to be suspect.
The assertion here of a lagging indicator is correct, of course, but the general assertion that ALL sources of "mainstream" journalism are mis-representing the situation and misleading readers/viewers into thinking that measures have not been effective is blatantly false and misleading itself.
This is a very good instance of using good information to persuade readers of a false or misleading premiss with only partial evidence (citing one article from the Hill, a small source itself, and one data chart from Axios, whatever that is, with a mention but no evidence from the NY Times).
You don't like the message so you slur the messenger and the source of the message. How adult of you.
ORIGINAL: obvert
Firstly, thanks for the reasoned response.
ORIGINAL: Lowpe
I, for one, would be leery of giving that kind of power to any President of the US.
All we're talking about is the information that was actually given out as a recommendation in mid March. The federal guidelines for social distancing on March 16.
If that was done one or two weeks earlier, it saves lives.
In the US, there were 8 states that didn't issue mandatory stay at home orders. None of those States were in risk of their hospitals being overrun which was the primary, original goal of the lockdown. There always exist more than one way to skin a cat.
Because of the Federal guidelines many did so anyway, many businesses closed, and many people distanced as in other places. That helps. That is why the Federal level guidelines were important. This also doesn't mean this was he reason those states didn't (yet) have a severe outbreak. The US is large, some states are definitely more rural and people are naturally less likely to have come in close contact with many others regularly.
There were many other states that had lockdowns of differing severity. In each individual state you see a wide disparity among local counties and their state govts. Some counties are actually in open rebellion. Most state Govnr's don't have the legal authority.
More reasons why Federal level guidelines are important. Again, the US is large, diverse, strange and wonderful. People do sometimes need to reign in their freedoms for the good of all though. It's happened before and didn't result in a loss of those freedoms.
The argument that the lockdown doesn't carry it's own deathtoll has somehow been excluded.
Many who are arguing against lockdowns use this as an argument, but also use mortality figures from a period when the social distancing and lockdowns were in place. If left to run both the Covid mortality goes up and the excess deaths from other conditions go up if hospitals are overwhelmed.
The decision to have a centralized mandate, would carry with it an important factor. Down the road, the economic costs of decision making during the time of the Pandemic would be distributed equally. For example, say my company has production in China that I now desire to bring back to the States. Would I pick New York, with it high tax, high cost, likely future shutdown environment, or someplace like South Dakota or Arkansas. I would only pick New York if the logistics savings or customer engagement was very concentrated there or the state plied me with tons of tax dollars/offsets or the Govt guaranteed I was immune from any future lockdown.
But if Arkansas was forced to shutdown, well then, that removes a very big decision making input.
If social distancing guidelines came a week or two earlier it would not change anything about this issue.
Cap said earlier that he fears a 4 year or so economic turnaround. I think we are more like at 10 years right now, based on the 2008 economic downturn or even longer. Just to give an idea of the hideous changes that are upon us, Gov Cuomo of New York is openly questioning having brick and mortar schools. Colleges are going to be especially hard hit.
Not only are we living in the greatest medical experiment of all time, we are going to see a huge economic migration across the world. It took almost 3 generations for economic interdependencies to return to their pre WW1 pre Spanish flu levels.
May you live in interesting times.[:)]
I think it'll all recover much more quickly. Travel will be tough, but I have a friend at a high level in that industry, and even he thinks there will be some positive upturns through the summer domestically and gradually through next year.
The US has sent a lot of people out of jobs, but those jobs will come back. Opening is happening, for better or worse, right now. Businesses will need people to resume.
The US is the largest economy in the world in spite of all of this. It will adapt. There are a lot of people out there who still want to make a lot of money. I fear for the poor, not the economy, in the long term.
