OT: Corona virus

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Lowpe
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by Lowpe »

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

The real issue with Cndn meat packing plants (maybe everywhere??) is not even so much the work environment as the the social setting for the workers. These are shitty jobs and the workers are predominantly poorer immigrant populations. These populations are tight knit, often travelling together, socializing together and in many instances sharing cramped accommodations. Language and education only add more problems to efforts to stem the virus.

My German opponent says that is exactly the make-up of meat-packing there also.

Alberta would pretty much have this licked were it not for several large meat plant out-breaks.

My family is from central Missouri, and there is a Tyson plant there. It is considered a tough place to work that pays above average. A good starter job. I have heard people complain that it is hard work. Of course it depends what you do. A meat cutter is paid around $15 hour, which is an excellent wage in mid Missouri.

There is a substantial number of minorities that work at the plant. What percentage, I have no idea.
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Lowpe
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by Lowpe »

ORIGINAL: obvert

Although records are not currently available for all areas, a study in California indicated a serious reduction in road accidents and fatalities during the lockdowns.

Since road accidents account for a large number of deaths per year virtually everywhere, this may be leading to fewer fatalities everywhere there is a lockdown.

https://thehill.com/changing-america/re ... cidents-in
Prior to the stay-at-home orders, researchers estimate that there were approximately 1,000 collision incidents and 400 injury and fatal accidents per day on highways across California, per data from the university’s real-time California Highway Incident Processing System (CHIPS).

With stay-at-home orders now in place, researchers at UCD now see approximately 500 collisions and 200 injuries or fatal incidents.


Since there are approximately 1.25 million road deaths worldwide every year, this could have significantly more impact than the rise in suicides, which account for almost 800k deaths worldwide every year (figures from WHO records.

This year suicides are tracking just about average worldwide, with around 380k now and ~800k expected for the year. Suicides also peak in the spring and early summer and drop off in late summer and through the winter.


An interesting aside here is motorcycle drivers. Many states enforced a mandatory helmet law while riding a motorcycle. Unfortunately for some members of society, with the newly enforced safety law the supply of organs for organ transplants dropped.

The motorcycle lobby that wanted to ride free and unencumbered so to speak has been successful in removing some of those state laws. They did in Pennsylvania. Perhaps remove is too strong a word, they altered the law and set up a method where individuals could qualify to ride without helmets.

Of course all of this causes discussion, studies, and debate. Here is one study on the effect of helmet laws on the supply of organ donors.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/661256?seq=1
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obvert
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by obvert »

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I agree with almost everything you say here, with the exception of the economy. The problem is you misconstrue what I say.

I am not arguing against a lockdown.

Got it. Sorry if I misunderstood your thinking..
Two areas I do disagree with you:

I have not seen pro-lockdown proponents address the effects of a lockdown in increased deaths let alone in other areas.

I'm not sure what you mean. In the interview with Neil Ferguson he expressed clearly that without a lockdown after cases were already high in a population excess deaths due to medical overload would be higher both for Covid patients and for others with medical needs, who would not have access to hospital services.

If you mean lockdowns causing excess deaths in current lockdowns, we have to remember that the number of Covid deaths are caused by social distancing being in place (and so lower than they would have been), to whatever degree it is in each area, and that deaths to other causes may rise in some areas and fall in others, (as I've posted about pollution and road fatalities).

I've seen a number of studies showing the economic impact on mental health will not be good, but countries are starting to also put more in place to protect those people. We'll see.

I have a lifetime of experience in small business. I literally know hundreds of business owners across all sectors. To say the economy will snap back except for maybe travel is naive. but well intended.


My wife runs a relatively small business, and we've had many a discussion about how that will work. I didn't mean to imply that travel was the only sector that will be tough, but actually used that as one that might suffer the most.

Hospitality, restaurants and bars will be hard hit unless outside options create space to use. Factories may also have a hard time as we've seen with the meat industry, depending on type of floor they run.

Shopping, malls and other physical store spaces may suffer as internet shopping will still be available. People though do want to get out, and when malls opened in a medium sized city a few weeks ago in Brazil they were thronged. I think human nature will bring people quickly back to old habits and patterns.

My thinking is not that it will immediately go back to normal but that if a business that is closed wants to open, they will call previous laid off staff and attempt to hire them back. If they get some cash from a stimulus package they can pay staff until business picks up in a month or so as things open further. If those staff have cash they can buy products, food and other services and it all starts to regenerate and feed back positively.

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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by Wuffer »

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Germany and Denmark remain considerably beneath the 1.0 threshold (.79 and .86, respectively). Denmark began easing on April 15. German around April 26.

Wish that would be still the case...
But no, it's ~ 1.1 here in Germany again.
Not sure if the relaxing alone was responsible - imho it's unfortunately the behaviour of this very special species of apes: as soon as the first restrictions were lifted, not everyone but too many idiots switched back in their old behaviour.

A friend is reopening his restaurant under chaotic regulations and give it at maximum two to three months until the next forced lockdown (which will end his business for ever). Only reservations, guests had to arrive in time and no more then 10 min late, had to registrate personallity including the exact chair and are forced to leave after 1 1/2 hour. Exactly like in the old GDR...

It's the people. If only once in while a volunteer would die in the middle of zhe street to confrontate the plebs with potentiel consequences.
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by Canoerebel »

I apologize, Wuffer, if I got it wrong. I got the info from this source, linked to by JohnD several days ago: https://covid19-projections.com/infections-tracker/
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by Canoerebel »

Oops, please ignore duplicate post.

[8D]
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
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Lowpe
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by Lowpe »

ORIGINAL: obvert

Got it. Sorry if I misunderstood your thinking..


I'm not sure what you mean.


The written word is very hard to communicate effectively with.[:D]

There obviously has been a lot of work done on modeling diseases and their impact on healthcare. However, Ferguson himself says he never thought a lockdown would be initiated in today's world. It was outside of his comprehension.

There was, to my mind, never an analysis of what the effects of a lockdown could be in the rush to prevent a medical collapse the goal was deemed so important as to justify almost any decision. Nothing ever operates in a vacuum, and the law of unintended consequences always rule while another law was broken.

When I was taking a Statistical Class in school long ago, there was a book...about the law of averages. It was a horror story, about what would happen to the world if the law of averages would be broken. And the world pretty much runs on the law of averages...it is in everything we do.

The Lockdown broke the law of averages. What it's outcome will be is absolutely uncertain except to say that the speed of change has accelerated to unbelievable levels.

Just the other day, Gov Cuomo of New York told reporters not to trust the numbers. Wise advice.





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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by obvert »

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: obvert

Got it. Sorry if I misunderstood your thinking..


I'm not sure what you mean.


The written word is very hard to communicate effectively with.[:D]

There obviously has been a lot of work done on modeling diseases and their impact on healthcare. However, Ferguson himself says he never thought a lockdown would be initiated in today's world. It was outside of his comprehension.

There was, to my mind, never an analysis of what the effects of a lockdown could be in the rush to prevent a medical collapse the goal was deemed so important as to justify almost any decision. Nothing ever operates in a vacuum, and the law of unintended consequences always rule while another law was broken.

When I was taking a Statistical Class in school long ago, there was a book...about the law of averages. It was a horror story, about what would happen to the world if the law of averages would be broken. And the world pretty much runs on the law of averages...it is in everything we do.

The Lockdown broke the law of averages. What it's outcome will be is absolutely uncertain except to say that the speed of change has accelerated to unbelievable levels.

Just the other day, Gov Cuomo of New York told reporters not to trust the numbers. Wise advice.

I guess I think back to other times and places where a catastrophe has broken systems down. Wars. Famine. Genocide. Financial Crisis. Natural Disaster. Sometimes those went on for a good long time in a specific place, sometimes across the entire planet.

In history so far we've always been able to put things back together, and sometimes quite quickly after a big problem.

If these lockdowns are short enough to just get cases low, begin opening and keep Ro manageable, I think things will gradually get better in a positive feedback loop. The credit system hasn't broken yet, markets are still functioning, if limping, and people in areas with measures in place so far seem able to get enough food, medicine and medical help to get through this first bit.

I'm in the optimistic camp. I think the economy will recover this year and if a second wave can be avoided in the fall, even unemployment will bounce back soon to under 10%. Some businesses will fail, but others will start. Some big businesses (Amazon) will get bigger. Some very rich will get richer. I do hope though that the most vulnerable people on the lowest end of the employment ladder will be able to make ends meet and get jobs. My worry is for those people.
"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by Cap Mandrake »

There will absolutely be a death toll if there is a worldwide depression akin to the 1930's. It just takes a while to get going. Right now it is like a post-apocalypse movie. There are still some canned goods left over in the stores. In x months we will have Hoovervilles all over the planet.

How did the world exit the Great Depression...with the worst war in the history of the planet. The last measure of US unemployment was 14.7% and that is a serious underestimate. At some point the damage will be irreversible in the short run (3-4 months let's say). Probably we are at that point already. Eventually you will see mortgage failures, bank failures, widespread business failures, international famines....ugly, ugly stuff. Quite possibly the economic doomsayers are battling it out with the public health doomsayers and we have to face the possibility they are BOTH right.
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by Lowpe »

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake
and we have to face the possibility they are BOTH right.


Yep.
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by Cap Mandrake »

You want some good news? The FDA just licensed a 15 minute COVID 19 nasal swab viral antigen test (based on the spike protein)

https://www.quidel.com/immunoassays/rap ... e-rsv-test
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by Lowpe »

It pays to stay unemployed. That might be a good thing

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/09/it-pays ... thing.html

In Pennsylvania, even if offered your job back, you can continue to stay on unemployment insurance and simply refuse to return to work. A rational short term decision.

It is interesting that bill that gives additional unemployment insurance till July, bailed out what I will call, in a general phrase, Wall Street for 4-5 years.

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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by RangerJoe »

Some of the people on the low end do not want jobs since they get free money and food, so why work. Sometimes they get free shelter as well.

As far as the businesses that fail, that can put people into bankruptcy. Other people see that and don't necessarily think of the opportunities.

Some people can get more money and have a better living on unemployment, at least for as long as that lasts. Some of it is because of the stimulus money. Other people may have difficulties finding employment and may leave the workforce. I expect that some of those will file for disability. Other people may do things to generate income that is not legal.

The important thing is the unemployment numbers, the more important number is those that are in the workforce - that is the employment rate.
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by Cap Mandrake »

We just sold our medical office building to a some real estate investment firm (this week)....<snicker>. They just snapped it up hardly without doing any analysis. It's not like we lied to them. There is a really good lease on the building.....but....This is not a good time to be a landlord
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by mind_messing »

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Some of the people on the low end do not want jobs since they get free money and food, so why work. Sometimes they get free shelter as well.

Yes, but what are those people as a percentage of the whole?
As far as the businesses that fail, that can put people into bankruptcy. Other people see that and don't necessarily think of the opportunities.

That's worth noting - there is scope for many traditional businesses to pivot during this crisis.
Some people can get more money and have a better living on unemployment, at least for as long as that lasts. Some of it is because of the stimulus money. Other people may have difficulties finding employment and may leave the workforce. I expect that some of those will file for disability. Other people may do things to generate income that is not legal.

The important thing is the unemployment numbers, the more important number is those that are in the workforce - that is the employment rate.

I think there may need to be a redrawing of the role of the state in regards to employment. UBI has been quite common in some of the discourse over here, so will be interesting to see if it resonates given the large jump in unemployment.

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Lowpe
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by Lowpe »

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

We just sold our medical office building to a some real estate investment firm (this week)....<snicker>. They just snapped it up hardly without doing any analysis. It's not like we lied to them. There is a really good lease on the building.....but....This is not a good time to be a landlord

Congratulations.

It will be interesting to see how all this shakes out. I suspect the tax laws for home offices will be liberalized, and even apartment and house layouts will change dramatically going forward to accommodate internet home offices. I have seen how hotels are offering very nice rates for daytime customers that want a room and some basic services to conduct work from instead of being restricted to their homes.

Talking about taxes, I saw the govt is thinking of delaying US Federal taxes till December.
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by fcooke »

The amount of 'leadership' nonsense on this one is OTT. Stupid stuff like you get paid more to stay at home than work. We should just stay home and do 'nothing'. Farmers/ Cattle ranchers are trashing crops/cattle while people in markets are having a hard time getting supplies.....

As much as it hurts that we are losing people....this 'pandemic' does not hold a candle to previous ones, and the indirect damages IMO are not nearly being analyzed enough.

I'm in an addiction program. We still meet via Zoom and audio. One young woman lost her Dad and could not attend services or get in person support. The knock on effect will only get reported years from now. Maybe.

Had a conversation with my brother in law a couple of days ago. We discussed people having common sense.....

Also had a convo with my high school finance team (donate - not working). They were thinking more 'educate' at home tools would work going forward. I am opposed. When I was still working I was getting annoyed that people could not get out of their cubes and speak to each other.

Wall street did not really get bailed out back in the day, but I will leave that to research and interpretation for those interested.

How we pay for this if we all stay behind closed doors forever will be interesting.

Rant off.
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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by RangerJoe »

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Some of the people on the low end do not want jobs since they get free money and food, so why work. Sometimes they get free shelter as well.

Yes, but what are those people as a percentage of the whole?

Too many when you think of the societal costs. A man in his upper 30s willing to stay in a Group Home in the country because he gets free room and board while collecting 100 USD and is unwilling to help keep the place clean, complains when other people clean, stays up all night watching television and playing games, then complains when the "turkey" lunch meat looks funny when it is ham, needs to get a job. But because he lost his social security card and does not have any ID, he can't get a job. He does not bother to get the ID nor a new Social Security card either.

Another man scammed his way into SSI (a form of disability) because if he worked, child support payments would take most of his money because he had five children with five different women. He had only married the last woman.

As far as the businesses that fail, that can put people into bankruptcy. Other people see that and don't necessarily think of the opportunities.

That's worth noting - there is scope for many traditional businesses to pivot during this crisis.

But pivoting also costs money. Pivoting may not work either and then that money and effort is gone.

There was a restaurant that did a lot of take out business during the lock down but did not want to get into delivery because that would compete with another business that did deliver. If they had to, they would have delivered but many people went there to pick up the food. BTW, the other business offered to help.

Some people can get more money and have a better living on unemployment, at least for as long as that lasts. Some of it is because of the stimulus money. Other people may have difficulties finding employment and may leave the workforce. I expect that some of those will file for disability. Other people may do things to generate income that is not legal.

The important thing is the unemployment numbers, the more important number is those that are in the workforce - that is the employment rate.

I think there may need to be a redrawing of the role of the state in regards to employment. UBI has been quite common in some of the discourse over here, so will be interesting to see if it resonates given the large jump in unemployment.

Finland tried a UBI for awhile but it failed.
Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing! :o

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
:twisted: ; Julia Child


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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by RangerJoe »

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

We just sold our medical office building to a some real estate investment firm (this week)....<snicker>. They just snapped it up hardly without doing any analysis. It's not like we lied to them. There is a really good lease on the building.....but....This is not a good time to be a landlord

Congratulations.

It will be interesting to see how all this shakes out. I suspect the tax laws for home offices will be liberalized, and even apartment and house layouts will change dramatically going forward to accommodate internet home offices. I have seen how hotels are offering very nice rates for daytime customers that want a room and some basic services to conduct work from instead of being restricted to their homes.

Talking about taxes, I saw the govt is thinking of delaying US Federal taxes till December.

That does not bother me, delay or not. I don't bother to file taxes. [8|][8D][:D]
Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing! :o

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
:twisted: ; Julia Child


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RE: OT: Corona virus

Post by RangerJoe »

ORIGINAL: fcooke

The amount of 'leadership' nonsense on this one is OTT. Stupid stuff like you get paid more to stay at home than work. We should just stay home and do 'nothing'. Farmers/ Cattle ranchers are trashing crops/cattle while people in markets are having a hard time getting supplies.....

As much as it hurts that we are losing people....this 'pandemic' does not hold a candle to previous ones, and the indirect damages IMO are not nearly being analyzed enough.

I'm in an addiction program. We still meet via Zoom and audio. One young woman lost her Dad and could not attend services or get in person support. The knock on effect will only get reported years from now. Maybe.

Had a conversation with my brother in law a couple of days ago. We discussed people having common sense.....

Also had a convo with my high school finance team (donate - not working). They were thinking more 'educate' at home tools would work going forward. I am opposed. When I was still working I was getting annoyed that people could not get out of their cubes and speak to each other.

Wall street did not really get bailed out back in the day, but I will leave that to research and interpretation for those interested.

How we pay for this if we all stay behind closed doors forever will be interesting.

Rant off.

The first part is why we need to end the lock downs. That does not mean that people and business can't take prudent steps to avoid people getting sick nor protecting those most vulnerable. The collapse of the medical system did not occur, there are known treatments that are effective, so there is no reason to keep the current lock down systems in place.
Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing! :o

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
:twisted: ; Julia Child


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