OT: Corona virus

[Cap Mandrake]

One way valve masks are becoming popular for the public. They are more pleasant to wear because you exhaust the water vapor and CO2 through a one-way valve.

Of course, this doesn't protect anyone around you.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: obvert




Most of that write up focused on N95 masks. Most countries have asked people not use those due to the need by specialists in front line services and medicine.

The article didn't actually include the very relevant statistics about reduction in passing the disease to someone else while using a mask, and the smaller percentage chance of the person wearing to catch something. I posted those earlier in the study. You have to thin about situations that might be different than your own. Here, public transit needs people to wear masks to protect workers and other travellers.

A surgical or cloth mask doesn't restrict your breath and does not give you a higher does of your own Covid (if that is even possible. I'd have to read linked studies to really confirm that but they're only noted, not linked, and not quoted with any statistics). If it's coming out your nose it's already in your nose, so how does that make it more dangerous? [:D]

This is mostly an opinion piece. However masks are required now in many areas for good reason. To protect others even if you don't care whether you catch it.

If it is coming out of your nose and you breathe it back in, you would be increasing yourviral load - some of which may get to your lungs.

I think that the masks would help for those workers at a meat packing plant taking those long bus rides. The same thing for field workers on a bus. Even just car pooling.

As mentioned, anything you or I say is baseless conjecture. Objective medical studies are the only thing that matters to sort these things out and for some I've seen wearing masks helps to prevent passing airborne viruses.

I do think you're missing the part about that same viral load having just passed out of your nose and going through your mask on the way out. Viruses are small.

Yes, it is conjecture. But it is partly based on education and experience.

Viruses are small but they also hitch a ride on larger particles.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: obvert




Most of that write up focused on N95 masks. Most countries have asked people not use those due to the need by specialists in front line services and medicine.

The article didn't actually include the very relevant statistics about reduction in passing the disease to someone else while using a mask, and the smaller percentage chance of the person wearing to catch something. I posted those earlier in the study. You have to thin about situations that might be different than your own. Here, public transit needs people to wear masks to protect workers and other travellers.

A surgical or cloth mask doesn't restrict your breath and does not give you a higher does of your own Covid (if that is even possible. I'd have to read linked studies to really confirm that but they're only noted, not linked, and not quoted with any statistics). If it's coming out your nose it's already in your nose, so how does that make it more dangerous? [:D]

This is mostly an opinion piece. However masks are required now in many areas for good reason. To protect others even if you don't care whether you catch it.

If it is coming out of your nose and you breathe it back in, you would be increasing yourviral load - some of which may get to your lungs.

I think that the masks would help for those workers at a meat packing plant taking those long bus rides. The same thing for field workers on a bus. Even just car pooling.

As mentioned, anything you or I say is baseless conjecture. Objective medical studies are the only thing that matters to sort these things out and for some I've seen wearing masks helps to prevent passing airborne viruses.

I do think you're missing the part about that same viral load having just passed out of your nose and going through your mask on the way out. Viruses are small.

I posted this before, but I believe Obvert was busy with other things.[:)]

Nonpharmaceutical Measures for Pandemic Influenza in Nonhealthcare Settings—Personal Protective and Environmental Measures

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

State unemployment compensation funds are nominally paid for by employers and employees in a prospective fashion. This is quite a rational system in the sense that it seems to let the taxpayers (in general) off the hook. Of course, it's not really "insurance" in the truest sense because there is no risk adjustment, in fact, perversely, those at the lowest risk of needing it pay the most..but hey..it's government.

The good news is the money goes into a fund to be paid out when needed. The bad news is essentially NO STATE planned for a downturn as historically disastrous as the artificial situation provoked by COVID 19. California's fund was supposed to last 20 months in a standard downturn. It lasted about 5 weeks. It's gone. California is BORROWING money from the feds which has to be paid back. The feds are BORROWING it from T-bill purchasers and IT has to be paid back. Fortunately, the economic outlook is so bad, half the world is rushing to buy US T-bills because they are "safe". [:)]

Many other states are in the same s***swirl. God only knows how many municipal BK's are on the horizon. The point is...the costs of the lockdown are heating up.

I suspect how state's run these things vary greatly. Pennsylvania is notoriously a slush fund that got horribly abused.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

One way valve masks are becoming popular for the public. They are more pleasant to wear because you exhaust the water vapor and CO2 through a one-way valve.

Of course, this doesn't protect anyone around you.

I just got three masks in the mail made by a widow at my parents home. She has to date made over 350, and has been using garments from her relatively recently passed husband. Lots of tie motifs. Power masks.

The home purchased for her a sewing machine and she made the vast majority for the staff, although the home provided the material and designs for those masks.

[Lowpe]

Gotta love the NY Post.

More people opting to go nude during quarantine

https://nypost.com/2020/05/14/more-peop ... uarantine/

[Nomad]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Gotta love the NY Post.

More people opting to go nude during quarantine

https://nypost.com/2020/05/14/more-peop ... uarantine/

Nude sunbathing will increase your vitamin D. [8D]

[Cap Mandrake]

I have started to wear a full face shield in the office too. It has to be reused because we don't have enough. You can't use an ophthalmoscope with the damn thing on but you can use an otoscope because the focal distance is different. When you use a stethoscope you have to get fairly close to the patient and a child will usually turn his/her head right at you because they are trying to figure out what the hell you are doing. A face shield is crucial if you have to examine the pharynx or collect swabs. If the patient has a fever you really need a disposable head covering and gown, face shield and N-95 mask and gloves and shoe covers. That's why we rotate one poor bastard for the group to do that all day.

The face shield I am using has big white and blue letters on the top that say "Face Shield"[:)] I think that is for the benefit of the patient. If you need some water or something you retreat to the office take off the shield from the top and stick the shield on the hot windowsill to get roasted by SoCal UV light. Then you goop up with alcohol gel and stand there like a zombie until it dries. I can't wait for this GD thing to be over.

[Cap Mandrake]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I suspect how state's run these things vary greatly. Pennsylvania is notoriously a slush fund that got horribly abused.

That does not surprise me [:)]

I predict somebody dipped into the funds in Illinois too.

[JohnDillworth]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe




Let us not forget that the CDC and doctors want to fight the virus. They don't have to worry about the economy, education, the public's other concerns, and other things.

If the employee is recovering from Covid-19, taking care of someone who has it, and/or on quarantine otherwise for exposure, they will not lose their job.

I hope that's true, I don't know that's true. Lets take the case of the meat packing plants. Already a dangerous job and now we have added Covid. Everyone gets sick, people die we close the plants. Presidents says meat is essential, invokes the defense production act and forces the plants open. Employees can't claim unemployment, they can't not report to work or they lose their jobs. They continue to get sick and die. State decides that makes the numbers look bad so they stop reporting those numbers. I assume if the numbers were good they would report them no? So, workers getting sick and dying, plant can't close, workers have no choice but to report, still getting sick, not information available as to how sick. What could possibly be worse? Sending Lawyers, and lobbyists and Senators to Washington to make sure the plant is protected against any liability. What protection do the workers have?????? ZERO. This is called exploitation. This is wrong. This is immoral. This is America in 2020

I believe that you are incorrect. Maybe read this, I believe it has been posted before:

Meat and Poultry Processing Workers and Employers
Interim Guidance from CDC and the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA)

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... oyers.html

That is a nice poster they created. We have a similar bunch hanging around my shop from the CDC and OSHA. My favorite part is when they tell people in addition to the mask they should stay 6 feet apart........at a meat packing plant......Not the photos and videos I've seen. My point is the guidance is terrific, but that's all it is. Who is enforcing it? What happens to a worked if he reports a violation? Does the plant have inspectors enforcing this? And what if the company violates this guidance? What are they going to do? Shut it down? Of course not. That's the point. The company can do whatever the want because the government has got their back. Forgive me if I don't believe that large corporate interests, (in the case of Smithfield owned by China)give a rats ass about the lowest rung of the American workforce

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth





I hope that's true, I don't know that's true. Lets take the case of the meat packing plants. Already a dangerous job and now we have added Covid. Everyone gets sick, people die we close the plants. Presidents says meat is essential, invokes the defense production act and forces the plants open. Employees can't claim unemployment, they can't not report to work or they lose their jobs. They continue to get sick and die. State decides that makes the numbers look bad so they stop reporting those numbers. I assume if the numbers were good they would report them no? So, workers getting sick and dying, plant can't close, workers have no choice but to report, still getting sick, not information available as to how sick. What could possibly be worse? Sending Lawyers, and lobbyists and Senators to Washington to make sure the plant is protected against any liability. What protection do the workers have?????? ZERO. This is called exploitation. This is wrong. This is immoral. This is America in 2020

I believe that you are incorrect. Maybe read this, I believe it has been posted before:

Meat and Poultry Processing Workers and Employers
Interim Guidance from CDC and the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA)

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... oyers.html

That is a nice poster they created. We have a similar bunch hanging around my shop from the CDC and OSHA. My favorite part is when they tell people in addition to the mask they should stay 6 feet apart........at a meat packing plant......Not the photos and videos I've seen. My point is the guidance is terrific, but that's all it is. Who is enforcing it? What happens to a worked if he reports a violation? Does the plant have inspectors enforcing this? And what if the company violates this guidance? What are they going to do? Shut it down? Of course not. That's the point. The company can do whatever the want because the government has got their back. Forgive me if I don't believe that large corporate interests, (in the case of Smithfield owned by China)give a rats ass about the lowest rung of the American workforce

The article that had been posted earlier about the meat packing industry had a different company that is out of Brazil. They will not penalize their workers.

As far as Smithfield from China, just get a certain someone involved, someone who has been antagonistic towards China.

Besides, some lawyers might take the case if they don't follow the guidelines. After all, the loser does not pay the winner's legal fees . . .

[Cap Mandrake]

The market solution is for maltreated workers to quit and for the employer to be forced to raise wages until they can find a workforce willing to do the job.

It is a crappy job. I would rather pick fruit or cut lettuce or push a broom at a work site.

[Orm]

Maybe this thread should stay away from the political side of the issue?

[RangerJoe]

I posted the guidelines. I don't know if he read them. But he responded the way that he did. He could pm me, but no . . .

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

The market solution is for maltreated workers to quit and for the employer to be forced to raise wages until they can find a workforce willing to do the job.

It is a crappy job. I would rather pick fruit or cut lettuce or push a broom at a work site.

I don't know, as an entry level job it teaches skills...I can see climbing the ladder to a grocery store butcher. In my neck of the woods that is a very good career for someone lacking a technical college degree. I know several grocery store butchers that went on to open their own small stores...I suspect that might be a bit suspect now though.

It is not for everyone, but as a boy growing up we were always cleaning fish to eat. That has probably changed over the years.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

The market solution is for maltreated workers to quit and for the employer to be forced to raise wages until they can find a workforce willing to do the job.

It is a crappy job. I would rather pick fruit or cut lettuce or push a broom at a work site.

I don't know, as an entry level job it teaches skills...I can see climbing the ladder to a grocery store butcher. In my neck of the woods that is a very good career for someone lacking a technical college degree.

It is not for everyone, but as a boy growing up we were always cleaning fish to eat. That has probably changed over the years.

Around here, depending upon the situation, you don't always have to clean your fish. The fishing guide will do it for you if you have a fishing guide.

Not to mention wild game.

[JohnDillworth]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

The market solution is for maltreated workers to quit and for the employer to be forced to raise wages until they can find a workforce willing to do the job.

It is a crappy job. I would rather pick fruit or cut lettuce or push a broom at a work site.

I don't know, as an entry level job it teaches skills...I can see climbing the ladder to a grocery store butcher. In my neck of the woods that is a very good career for someone lacking a technical college degree. I know several grocery store butchers that went on to open their own small stores...I suspect that might be a bit suspect now though.

It is not for everyone, but as a boy growing up we were always cleaning fish to eat. That has probably changed over the years.

Of course this is true and I'm sure most of the people that work in these places are trying to better their situation or if not for them, for their children. The problem is the world has changed overnight and the worker got the short end of things fairly quickly. The plants got shut down because people were getting sick. That's the right thing to do. It's what happened after that that is troubling.

As for crappy jobs? We have all had them. Ever see the guy on the road crew raking the hot asphalt out of the truck and onto the road on a blasting hot day? That was me one summer. Got great money for that......but my grades got a lot better the next semester. I don't mind a hard days work but I wasn't going to do manual labor for the rest of my life. Meat packing has a large percentage of 1st generation immigrants working those jobs. Also part of the America story. Last guy in gets the jobs nobody else wants to do, but you want better for the next generation.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

The market solution is for maltreated workers to quit and for the employer to be forced to raise wages until they can find a workforce willing to do the job.

In theory. In practice, quite different as there's someone desperate enough to work under poor conditions. As others have stated, it's not as if corporate interests were strongly interested in working conditions prior to all this...


EDIT: Oh, yeah. Unemployment through the roof, so the company knows it has the workers between a rock and hard place.

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

The market solution is for maltreated workers to quit and for the employer to be forced to raise wages until they can find a workforce willing to do the job.

It is a crappy job. I would rather pick fruit or cut lettuce or push a broom at a work site.

I don't know, as an entry level job it teaches skills...I can see climbing the ladder to a grocery store butcher. In my neck of the woods that is a very good career for someone lacking a technical college degree. I know several grocery store butchers that went on to open their own small stores...I suspect that might be a bit suspect now though.

It is not for everyone, but as a boy growing up we were always cleaning fish to eat. That has probably changed over the years.

I genuinely struggle to imagine any serious career progression from something like a meat packing plant.

Granted, there will be some decent progression through the ranks so to speak, but let's not pretend that it is the norm for some guy on the factory floor will be CEO in twenty years time.

[mind_messing]

There was an article in the Guardian a while back that I'll see if I can find that made a very good point - a lot of the secondary industries impacted by Covid are ones where working conditions weren't exactly great beforehand.

The added stress of the pandemic and the resulting legislative response is bringing issues that were already bubbling up to boiling point. The focus was on things like warehousing (specifically Amazon focused), but I should think it applies to the US in much the same way.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: witpqs



I think the write-up Lowpe posted (#7765) is much more convincing.

Most of that write up focused on N95 masks. Most countries have asked people not use those due to the need by specialists in front line services and medicine.

The article didn't actually include the very relevant statistics about reduction in passing the disease to someone else while using a mask, and the smaller percentage chance of the person wearing to catch something. I posted those earlier in the study. You have to thin about situations that might be different than your own. Here, public transit needs people to wear masks to protect workers and other travellers.

A surgical or cloth mask doesn't restrict your breath and does not give you a higher does of your own Covid (if that is even possible. I'd have to read linked studies to really confirm that but they're only noted, not linked, and not quoted with any statistics). If it's coming out your nose it's already in your nose, so how does that make it more dangerous? [:D]

This is mostly an opinion piece. However masks are required now in many areas for good reason. To protect others even if you don't care whether you catch it.

Respiratory virus shedding in exhaled breath and efficacy of face masks
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0843-2

Why is Sweden not recommending face masks to the public?
https://www.thelocal.se/20200514/explai ... the-public

Thanks. Looks like the first confirms wearing a mask helps. It also calls into question Blaylock's entire premiss as he quotes and states;

“None of the studies established a conclusive relationship between mask/respirator use and protection against influenza infection." Keep in mind, no studies have been done to demonstrate that either a cloth mask or the N95 mask has any effect on transmission of the COVID-19 virus.

This from the study you posted.

We detected coronavirus in respiratory droplets and aerosols in 3 of 10 (30%) and 4 of 10 (40%) of the samples collected without face masks, respectively, but did not detect any virus in respiratory droplets or aerosols collected from participants wearing face masks, this difference was significant in aerosols and showed a trend toward reduced detection in respiratory droplets (Table 1b).

--------------------

We also demonstrated the efficacy of surgical masks to reduce coronavirus detection and viral copies in large respiratory droplets and in aerosols (Table 1b). This has important implications for control of COVID-19, suggesting that surgical face masks could be used by ill people to reduce onward transmission.

The Swedish concern seems more about human behaviour rather than the efficacy of face masks. They state;

"Face masks in public spaces do not provide any greater protection to the population," Johan Carlson from the Swedish Public Health Agency Folkhälsomyndigheten said at a press conference on May 13th.

Swedish health authorities argue that keeping a distance, washing your hands, not touching your face, and staying at home if you experience any symptoms are still the best ways to halt the spread of the coronavirus. There is a concern that wearing face masks would make people follow these guidelines less strictly.

Public spaces most likely means outside, where masks would obviously be less necessary. They failed to mention that masks are most protective of the person next to the person wearing one, rather than the wearer.

The EU infectious disease advice is contrary to Swedish policy, as quoted in this article.

The European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control, the EU's infectious disease agency, at the start of April advised EU governments that masks could be helpful in reducing transmission.

"A face mask may help reduce the spread of infection in the community by minimising the excretion of respiratory droplets from infected individuals who may not even know they are infected and before they develop any symptoms," it reported.

So please wear face masks. Not for you, but for someone else.