Updated Scen 1 and 2

[JamesHunt]

Thanks for keeping improving the scripts for the WOTPAE AI.

I have recently downloaded the 2012 AI update for these scenarios but do I assume correctly that 001v5 and 002v6 from this thread are the current state of the art script versions of the 001/002 scenario AI?

[Kull]

ORIGINAL: JamesHunt

Thanks for keeping improving the scripts for the WOTPAE AI.

I have recently downloaded the 2012 AI update for these scenarios but do I assume correctly that 001v5 and 002v6 from this thread are the current state of the art script versions of the 001/002 scenario AI?

Only if you use the ENTIRE scenario. These AI scripts cannot be migrated to older scenarios, because the database includes a lot of new bases, and the new AI scripts assume they exist (and thus reference them). Since the new bases do NOT exist in the older scenarios, well.....

[JamesHunt]

ORIGINAL: Kull

ORIGINAL: JamesHunt

Thanks for keeping improving the scripts for the WOTPAE AI.

I have recently downloaded the 2012 AI update for these scenarios but do I assume correctly that 001v5 and 002v6 from this thread are the current state of the art script versions of the 001/002 scenario AI?

Only if you use the ENTIRE scenario. These AI scripts cannot be migrated to older scenarios, because the database includes a lot of new bases, and the new AI scripts assume they exist (and thus reference them). Since the new bases do NOT exist in the older scenarios, well.....

I guess this also means that I should stay away from merging the AI files with babeslite or dabigbabes when using this as they either don´t have the new bases or come with different bases then the database which this scenario is based upon.

[Kull]

Yeah, that's kinda where I figured you were taking this, so wanted to make it clear. Again, up through the 2012 updates, everything is in synch. After? No.

[mind_messing]

Some feedback - liking the changes overall with the added bases. Makes for some more interesting options for development in certain areas.

Too early to tell what impact the boost to LI will have, but will keep it in mind.

One thing I do have a mild concern about is the dot hexes in Malaysia. A prompt Japanese player can relocate some paratroopers and be in position to cut up Allied rail links within the first few days. End result is that it's brigades and regiments in Singers rather than Brit and Indian Divisions.

[Yaab]

.

[Andy Mac]

Agreed the bases in Burma make hindsight attacks easier but both sides get 2020 hindsight so I figure it evens out

Anyone else played the scens interested in feedback either PBEM or v AI

[Yaab]

Started a new campaign scen001 in May, 2020 as Allies. Currently on turn 9.

Some thoughts:

-Jap AI never uses sweeps. The same thing happened in my scen100 campaign in 2018. I haven't peeked into the Jap side yet, by my guess is the Zeros on Formosa use CAP/Escort with 11 hex range or greater, because I get those "Catalina destroyed by enemy CAP messages" with the point of interception somewhere over Luzon.

-AI is hampered by spells of bad weather. I did several restarts of my campaign this May and with Clear weather Jap air raids come escorted every time over Clark Field/Manila. But there are restarts when it is wave after wave of unescorted Nell, Sally or Lily, because weather is bad for 5-6 days.

-Nells on Naval Attack as always overfly such heavily CAP-ed bases like Singapore and Manila. Since I have AMc , AM TFs deployed there at all times, the Nells impale themselves on my CAP, going after those AMc, AM TF which have 10/10 detection every turn. To prop up the AI, I have to disband those TFs.

-Some bases in China could use bigger airfields at start to store more supply without spoilage. It beggars belief that such an important base like Sian starts with just level 1 airfield , which give the base maximum 8000 supply storage. I had to walk out the HQs so LCUs can develop airfield without suffering spoilage to supplies. Liuchow, Chengtu and Changteh also start absurdly small in terms of supply storage.


EDIT: In Burma, with some splitting hairs, I was able to cover with local LCUs all the new bases that are on railroad from Rangoon to Lashio. As per manual, those bases need to be in Allied control so the Burma Road is open. Does the code really checks those new bases you added?

Also, Tracker cannot recognise Port Dickson in Malaya - it sees just a non-base hex. Maybe some glitch in the Editor. All other new bases show up properly in Tracker.

[Yaab]

Scen 001 ver 5, Allies

I think I found an undocumented feature.

Why does every SINGLE base in China have supply caps now? I thought maybe the stacking limits, which I use in my game, were somehow responsible for this, but then I checked bases in CONUSA, Australia, India, Java etc. and they do not have supply caps. In China, supply is not moving from Chungking to other bases. As of turn 9, I still have 64,000 supplies in Chungking, way above my spoilage limit of 53,000 supplies. South of Chungking, a string of your new bases strangles supply movement because each bas has only 150 supply caps . That's insane! Bases in Northern Burma have 1000 supply caps.

Please load scen001 as Allies and see if Chungking has 6000 supply cap, Yenan 450, Ankang 300 etc and Zuny'i (new base N of Kweiyang) 150 supply cap.

EDIT: I see that in your notes for version 5 of scen001 you talk about amending some Chinese bases and their supply caps. Nowhere do you talk abot a wholesale application of supply caps in every base in China.

EDIT 2: Just loaded scen007 Quiet China. Bases in China have no supply caps in this scenario just like in the old stock scen001.


Here is Yenan with 450 supply cap





Here is Chungking. Turn 9, and it still has 62,000 supplies , way above its 53,000 supply capacity. In scen 100, on turn 3, I had only 34,000 supplies in Chungking.

[Andy Mac]

-Jap AI never uses sweeps. The same thing happened in my scen100 campaign in 2018. I haven't peeked into the Jap side yet, by my guess is the Zeros on Formosa use CAP/Escort with 11 hex range or greater, because I get those "Catalina destroyed by enemy CAP messages" with the point of interception somewhere over Luzon.

-Nells on Naval Attack as always overfly such heavily CAP-ed bases like Singapore and Manila. Since I have AMc , AM TFs deployed there at all times, the Nells impale themselves on my CAP, going after those AMc, AM TF which have 10/10 detection every turn. To prop up the AI, I have to disband those TFs.

BOTH OF ABOVE ARE IN CODE AND I CAN DO NOTHING THE AI DOESNT SWEEP OTHER THAN OCCCASIONALLY - NOTHING I CAN DO ABOUT IT

-Some bases in China could use bigger airfields at start to store more supply without spoilage. It beggars belief that such an important base like Sian starts with just level 1 airfield , which give the base maximum 8000 supply storage. I had to walk out the HQs so LCUs can develop airfield without suffering spoilage to supplies. Liuchow, Chengtu and Changteh also start absurdly small in terms of supply storage.

I WILL TAKE A LOOK AT THIS AS ONE OF THE POINTS OF THE MOD WAS TO SLOW DOWN CHINA FOR BOTH SIDES I MAY HAVE GONE OVERKILL

Also, Tracker cannot recognise Port Dickson in Malaya - it sees just a non-base hex. Maybe some glitch in the Editor. All other new bases show up properly in Tracker.

I DONT KNOW TRACKER SORRY NOT SOMETHIGN I KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT
[/quote]

[Andy Mac]

thanks YAAB the supply caps were deliberate to slow both sides down - as its a theatre most players ignore until they cannot any more I may have to increase the supply levels outside of chungking or increase the base build levels in some bases

Quiet China hasn't been touched in 10 years !!!

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Scen 001 ver 5, Allies

I think I found an undocumented feature.

Why does every SINGLE base in China have supply caps now? I thought maybe the stacking limits, which I use in my game, were somehow responsible for this, but then I checked bases in CONUSA, Australia, India, Java etc. and they do not have supply caps. In China, supply is not moving from Chungking to other bases. As of turn 9, I still have 64,000 supplies in Chungking, way above my spoilage limit of 53,000 supplies. South of Chungking, a string of your new bases strangles supply movement because each bas has only 150 supply caps . That's insane! Bases in Northern Burma have 1000 supply caps.

Please load scen001 as Allies and see if Chungking has 6000 supply cap, Yenan 450, Ankang 300 etc and Zuny'i (new base N of Kweiyang) 150 supply cap.

EDIT: I see that in your notes for version 5 of scen001 you talk about amending some Chinese bases and their supply caps. Nowhere do you talk abot a wholesale application of supply caps in every base in China.

EDIT 2: Just loaded scen007 Quiet China. Bases in China have no supply caps in this scenario just like in the old stock scen001.


Here is Yenan with 450 supply cap





Here is Chungking. Turn 9, and it still has 62,000 supplies , way above its 53,000 supply capacity. In scen 100, on turn 3, I had only 34,000 supplies in Chungking.

[Andy Mac]

So in the Yenan example only 450 tonnes of supply can arrive or despatch per day max if you build up the AF or forts that will increase but until you improve the infrastructure it is limited

[Yaab]

But AndyMac, adding supply caps to all China bases is a huge change.

Your updates notes for scen001 (post 1 in this thread) speak of amending supply caps in a few bases in China. I instantly thought of Paoshan-Tsuyung-Kunming bases. Started a new campaign and only noted the supply caps in other bases in China on turn 9. I can attest that supply propagate at a lower rate and I have still 59,000 supplies in Chungking on turn 10 down form the starting pile of 83,000 supplies. Plus, the new BFs start without engineers so you have to fill them up first before you can start building forts in new bases.

There are some obvious bottlenecks like Zunyi (base ID 1704) which has a measly 150 supply cap.

[Yaab]

Scen001v5, Allies, turn 10.



Seems British leaders can be assigned to lead Dutch infantry regiments. Same goes for the Dutch BF units.

[Andy Mac]

That's weird never saw that one before - that's not my fault !!!

[Andy Mac]

ORIGINAL: Yaab


But AndyMac, adding supply caps to all China bases is a huge change.

Your updates notes for scen001 (post 1 in this thread) speak of amending supply caps in a few bases in China. I instantly thought of Paoshan-Tsuyung-Kunming bases. Started a new campaign and only noted the supply caps in other bases in China on turn 9. I can attest that supply propagate at a lower rate and I have still 59,000 supplies in Chungking on turn 10 down form the starting pile of 83,000 supplies. Plus, the new BFs start without engineers so you have to fill them up first before you can start building forts in new bases.

There are some obvious bottlenecks like Zunyi (base ID 1704) which has a measly 150 supply cap.

China isn't a decisive theatre for either side the extra supply caps keep it that way unless you really commit ie bring in Seabees to China

[Yaab]

It is not a corrupted save, as those British leader can be selected on turn 1.

If you change Dutch LCU's attachement from KNIL Army HQ to ABDA HQ, then the British leaders disappear and only the correct Dutch leaders remain in the selection window.

[mind_messing]

Some feedback from playtesting. Currently Nov '42 in PBEM.

- Supply caps in China didn't change much, still rolled China up fairly effectively. The extra bases didn't make much difference, but I like the notion of dispersing Chinese LI so that losing the big cities doesn't immediately cripple the Chinese.

- Extra dot bases in Burma really changes things for the better, for both sides. Lots more consideration needs to be given to rear-area garrisons due to the possibility for amphib invasions/paratroops causing problems (as was the case historically). Burma feels more fluid: the Arrakan front has a bit more nuance than just a frontline somewhere between Ramree Island and Akyab.

- Supply throughput from Thailand to Burma once Chang-Mai/Uttaradit have bene built up seems fine.

- One consideration is that added industry in Oz (especially in Northern Oz) is VP's on the vine for the IJ in the early war, and the Allied player can do very little to oppose it.

- I think adding LI to the DEI needs to be thought out properly. Given that Japan tends to float resources globally and has a glut in the DEI, this could be exploited somewhat. While the return on expansion for LI isn't great (1100 days), there are "out of the way" places where I think it could be exploited to minimize supply exports from the Home Islands. The areas that stick out most to me in this are:
1. Celebes
2. Borneo
3. Sumatra.

I've not ran the numbers, but I suspect that a diligent Japanese player who invests supplies in expanding LI in these key areas could establish a degree of autarky. While that is already possible in the base game, I think these changes have made it much more viable given the number of LI sites (10x10 LI can double in size quicker than 1x100 LI site can) and the LI sites dispersed geography away from traditional Japanese industry centres (harder to bomb).

Thoughts on this?

[Andy Mac]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Some feedback from playtesting. Currently Nov '42 in PBEM.

- Supply caps in China didn't change much, still rolled China up fairly effectively. The extra bases didn't make much difference, but I like the notion of dispersing Chinese LI so that losing the big cities doesn't immediately cripple the Chinese.

- Extra dot bases in Burma really changes things for the better, for both sides. Lots more consideration needs to be given to rear-area garrisons due to the possibility for amphib invasions/paratroops causing problems (as was the case historically). Burma feels more fluid: the Arrakan front has a bit more nuance than just a frontline somewhere between Ramree Island and Akyab.

- Supply throughput from Thailand to Burma once Chang-Mai/Uttaradit have bene built up seems fine.

- One consideration is that added industry in Oz (especially in Northern Oz) is VP's on the vine for the IJ in the early war, and the Allied player can do very little to oppose it.

- I think adding LI to the DEI needs to be thought out properly. Given that Japan tends to float resources globally and has a glut in the DEI, this could be exploited somewhat. While the return on expansion for LI isn't great (1100 days), there are "out of the way" places where I think it could be exploited to minimize supply exports from the Home Islands. The areas that stick out most to me in this are:
1. Celebes
2. Borneo
3. Sumatra.

I've not ran the numbers, but I suspect that a diligent Japanese player who invests supplies in expanding LI in these key areas could establish a degree of autarky. While that is already possible in the base game, I think these changes have made it much more viable given the number of LI sites (10x10 LI can double in size quicker than 1x100 LI site can) and the LI sites dispersed geography away from traditional Japanese industry centres (harder to bomb).

Thoughts on this?

Thanks Mind_Messing appreciate the feedback I didn't think there was that much in DEI I will take another look - my only observation is even if the LI is doubled or trebled is it going to be decisive and its on map and can be bombed so it shouldn't be a major issue player will still need to send supply convoys to do offensive operations.

Having said that I have a game about to start myself as a PBEM so I will make sure to take a good look over next few weeks as most of my testing has been v the AI so far

Once again greatly appreciate the feedback

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Some feedback from playtesting. Currently Nov '42 in PBEM.

- Supply caps in China didn't change much, still rolled China up fairly effectively. The extra bases didn't make much difference, but I like the notion of dispersing Chinese LI so that losing the big cities doesn't immediately cripple the Chinese.

- Extra dot bases in Burma really changes things for the better, for both sides. Lots more consideration needs to be given to rear-area garrisons due to the possibility for amphib invasions/paratroops causing problems (as was the case historically). Burma feels more fluid: the Arrakan front has a bit more nuance than just a frontline somewhere between Ramree Island and Akyab.

- Supply throughput from Thailand to Burma once Chang-Mai/Uttaradit have bene built up seems fine.

- One consideration is that added industry in Oz (especially in Northern Oz) is VP's on the vine for the IJ in the early war, and the Allied player can do very little to oppose it.

- I think adding LI to the DEI needs to be thought out properly. Given that Japan tends to float resources globally and has a glut in the DEI, this could be exploited somewhat. While the return on expansion for LI isn't great (1100 days), there are "out of the way" places where I think it could be exploited to minimize supply exports from the Home Islands. The areas that stick out most to me in this are:
1. Celebes
2. Borneo
3. Sumatra.

I've not ran the numbers, but I suspect that a diligent Japanese player who invests supplies in expanding LI in these key areas could establish a degree of autarky. While that is already possible in the base game, I think these changes have made it much more viable given the number of LI sites (10x10 LI can double in size quicker than 1x100 LI site can) and the LI sites dispersed geography away from traditional Japanese industry centres (harder to bomb).

Thoughts on this?

Thanks Mind_Messing appreciate the feedback I didn't think there was that much in DEI I will take another look - my only observation is even if the LI is doubled or trebled is it going to be decisive and its on map and can be bombed so it shouldn't be a major issue player will still need to send supply convoys to do offensive operations.

Having said that I have a game about to start myself as a PBEM so I will make sure to take a good look over next few weeks as most of my testing has been v the AI so far

Once again greatly appreciate the feedback

No problem - just to stress that am very much enjoying the changes!

On the question of LI, you might be right, just a thought I'd had for something "out of the box". Bombing it might be hard, given how it's so dispersed and the DEI tends to be out of the way of most Allied advances.