The French/British fleet is the Baltic?

[Sparky0565]

This to me is beyond gamey. Is there even a historical precedence for this that I am unaware of? The penalty to do so is only a slight increase in Denmark's political position from I see. I even had an invasion of the Baltic coast by the Britsh. Just think of the logistical effort to be able to do this and get supply. The ships seem to just pop up anywhere in the Baltic.

To resolve this I propose the following

No passage to the Baltic unless the straights are friendly.

Or

The Axis have the ability to block the entrance points just like in Strategic Commmand WW2 World at War like the British can do to the Italian fleet trying to get to the Atlantic

Or

A dramatic increase in diplomacy for Scandinavian countries. Denmark, Norway, Sweden with each occurrence making them joining the war effort almost immediate due to the violation of neutrality.

Lastly, the Entente should halve no possible way to use the Kiel canal unless all adjacent land hexes are friendly. There is no way the French/British fleet could just sail the canal. Was this overlooked?

I am on my 4th multi player game as the Triple Alliance believing I finally found a game balance for them. This gamey maneuver has totally skewed the game.

Can we fix this in the next update?

[The Land]

The only things preventing this happening in real life were the German Navy and the German Army - so I'd say it's probably reasonable to rely on the Germany armed forces in the game to prevent this happening, rather than rule it out. Some British admirals were very keen on exactly this kind of mission, but were persuaded it would be foolish to fight very close to German harbours because of the risks from mines and submarines, even with a superior fleet. And landing an army on the Prussian coast would achieve little because the German army would be bigger and better.

The Kiel canal should be very difficult for the Entente to use though - they would need to control all the hexes on it, and control can't be established from the sea. Still, if there are Entente land units occupying it and no German troops contesting it....

[Xsillione]

And actually multiple UK subs went into the baltic sea, and used Russian ports. Most of them had to be interned after the Russian separate peace, since getting out was almost impossible without causing major incidents. There was some ideas fro doing the exact thing you mention, going in as a fleet, even pissing of Denmark if needed, and landing in the Germany backyard.

The supply issue would be a major reason to not do, but on the other hand, that would force the German navy to confront the UK fleet, and make a decisive battle. If this plan went ahead, they could decide the war in an afternoon as one sides fleet emerge victorious, and can do a total blockade of the other side.

[Sparky0565]

I would agree to disagree. Plans are made for every contingency. The US had a plan to invade England once.. another plan to invade Canada.. plan Orange thankfully was never put to test to sail the Pacific fleet in WW2 to the Philippines and declare victory...

The ease and real lack of strong penalties make this a very gamey move.

Coastal gun are not represented in the Demark straights that would dominate the straights. Even the British incursion into the Dardenellea was met but artillery that prevented them from achieving their goal.

Many games have similar rules for straights. Ships just can't have free roam. There is no real counter to the Baltic Bypass. At least the Turkish straights and Kiel Canala the Triple Alliance can block the path with ships, subs, or a ground unit. The gaming's is too good to not to do.

Even is WW2 the Allies did not try to sail atask forces into the Baltic through the Danish Straights. It was a private lake for Germany.



Look how well the invasion of Turkey went and the Logistic should have been a lot better than going thru hostile sea zones of the Baltic.

[Sparky0565]

I could see submarines passing through, similarly as the Axis did in WW2 at the straights of Gibralter. Currently British and French wolf packs could pass into the Baltic. And the exits into the Baltic ttic can't be blocked. If this actually happened, the Germans would have sunk block ships in the straights to prevent it happening more than once.

[eightroomofelixir]

The US War Plans are not ideal counterarguments, as they were rather hypothetical, mostly stayed at a strategic stage, hardly got into war plan.

On the other hand, Lord Fisher was very serious about the Baltic Project, an amphibious attack on the German Baltic Sea coastline, designed by himself. He pushed forward the construction of three shallow-draft battlecruisers, the Glorious/Courageous-Class, specifically designed for invading the Baltic. Fisher even designed this class of ships as very big light cruisers, in order to bypass Treasury's prohibition on building large ships; all three ships were finished in 1916-1917 IRL.

I would say this is a reasonable historical precedence - there were lots of efforts put into it, although realistically speaking a really bad idea. The plan was never actually implemented and Fisher resigned in 1915.

[Sparky0565]

Efforts without results. Churchill really wanted to invade Norway and wa saw how well that worked. I'd say if the Baltic invasion should be feasible, then there needs to be a way to block it as it would have been easy to block.

Have exit hexes that can be occupied to block the entrance onto the Baltic.

[The Land]

ORIGINAL: Sparky0565

Efforts without results. Churchill really wanted to invade Norway and wa saw how well that worked. I'd say if the Baltic invasion should be feasible, then there needs to be a way to block it as it would have been easy to block.

Have exit hexes that can be occupied to block the entrance onto the Baltic.

so what *is* your navy doing?

[Sparky0565]

Subs were out with 3 dreadnought raiding the Russian convoys. Lost 2 dreadnought that way. The German navy was interdiction the Russian ports and now mostly in ports repairing trying to fend off the entire entente fleet. The Med look like the Austrians are soon to rule the waves.

[FOARP]

ORIGINAL: The Land

The only things preventing this happening in real life were the German Navy and the German Army

That and the massive minefields that were laid in the narrows by the Danes/Swedes. It would basically have been impossible for a substantial surface fleet to transit without carrying out an effective invasion of Denmark.

How to fix the Kiel Canal issue? If a German land unit is placed in the canal, can Entente warships still move through it? Maybe placing an unmovable unit in the land/se hexes would solve it? I think the same concern also applies to the Dardanelles and Suez.

[The Land]

ORIGINAL: FOARP

ORIGINAL: The Land

The only things preventing this happening in real life were the German Navy and the German Army

That and the massive minefields that were laid in the narrows by the Danes/Swedes. It would basically have been impossible for a substantial surface fleet to transit without carrying out an effective invasion of Denmark.

Hmmm - an obstacle is only an obstacle if it's defended....

[FOARP]

ORIGINAL: The Land

ORIGINAL: FOARP

ORIGINAL: The Land

The only things preventing this happening in real life were the German Navy and the German Army

That and the massive minefields that were laid in the narrows by the Danes/Swedes. It would basically have been impossible for a substantial surface fleet to transit without carrying out an effective invasion of Denmark.

Hmmm - an obstacle is only an obstacle if it's defended....

Minefields have a tendency to defend themselves, by exploding next to anyone silly enough to try to sail through them. Sweeping the fields would 1) take time, and 2) be an act of war against the mine-layers.

[BillRunacre]

Hi everyone

It certainly shouldn't be possible for the Entente to sail through the Kiel Canal without landing ground units to capture all the hexes of the canal first. But some vessels, a few at a time at most, can sail via Denmark.


Reading the thread above, it seems that the Entente have gone heavy handed into the Baltic, but the price of this is that the Austro-Hungarian (and possibly even Ottoman navies?) can control the Med.

Coupled with this, the Entente vessels in the Baltic will probably be stuck there for the rest of the war.

If Russia folds then will have no source of supply, and apart from raiding the convoy from Sweden (and later Finland) there isn't much else they can do if the German navy stays in port as much as possible.


So before changing anything we would need to be sure that this does cause as great an imbalance as it first appears.

A quick rule of thumb is, would Entente players who have done this, and experienced the pros and cons of doing so, now do it in significantly more than 50% of games?

Bill

[Christolos]

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

...But some vessels, a few at a time at most, can sail via Denmark.

I'm a little confused as to how some ships can sail via Denmark. Does Denmark need to be 100% Entente?

...Coupled with this, the Entente vessels in the Baltic will probably be stuck there for the rest of the war.

How is it that they would get stuck? Do you mean if Germany takes Denmark after they sailed in?

Thanks,

C

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: Christolos

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

...But some vessels, a few at a time at most, can sail via Denmark.

I'm a little confused as to how some ships can sail via Denmark. Does Denmark need to be 100% Entente?

...Coupled with this, the Entente vessels in the Baltic will probably be stuck there for the rest of the war.

How is it that they would get stuck? Do you mean if Germany takes Denmark after they sailed in?

Thanks,

C

Yes good question how can they sail in if they cannot sail out?

[Xsillione]

The actual straits are strange there, some flows into the baltic, some out to the atlantic, the inflow ones are larger and more numerous, the outflows are very restricted in size, and most goes near the Danish capitals ports, which in this time heavily fortified, so, going out is hard against the wishes of Denmark, while slipping in is somewhat easy, if you accept that you will not get out.

[Christolos]

ORIGINAL: Xsillione

The actual straits are strange there, some flows into the baltic, some out to the atlantic, the inflow ones are larger and more numerous, the outflows are very restricted in size, and most goes near the Danish capitals ports, which in this time heavily fortified, so, going out is hard against the wishes of Denmark, while slipping in is somewhat easy, if you accept that you will not get out.

Thanks, but this doesn't really help me understand how slipping in, whether easy or hard, is possible to begin with. Where exactly can ships slip in, how, and with which type of ships?

Thanks,

C

[BillRunacre]

ORIGINAL: Christolos

ORIGINAL: Xsillione

The actual straits are strange there, some flows into the baltic, some out to the atlantic, the inflow ones are larger and more numerous, the outflows are very restricted in size, and most goes near the Danish capitals ports, which in this time heavily fortified, so, going out is hard against the wishes of Denmark, while slipping in is somewhat easy, if you accept that you will not get out.

Thanks, but this doesn't really help me understand how slipping in, whether easy or hard, is possible to begin with. Where exactly can ships slip in, how, and with which type of ships?

Thanks,

C

Any type of ship, and there are three hexes to the north of Odense and the Great Belt where placing these vessels will see them sail on to the Baltic.

[Christolos]

Thanks Bill,

I discovered those hexes shortly after I posted...

So I also imagine that these are one-directional in and not out, right?

Cheers,

C

[BillRunacre]

That's right, you can enter the Baltic but you will probably never leave, which does make it a bolder decision to take, because if Russia folds then these vessels will have no ability to resupply.