Revenge of the Enterprise

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DesertWolf101
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RE: Revenge of the Enterprise

Post by DesertWolf101 »

ORIGINAL: Alfred

On the evidence presented to date, I'm not impressed with your opponent's use of game mechanics.  In particular his land warfare technique is lacking.  Most egregious is his regular use of shock attacks instead of bombardment or deliberate attack.  Not that you are totally blameless in this area and against a better opponent you would have been forced to pay a much heavier price but in comparison to your opponent, your use of shock attack is much more restrained.

In AE, a shock attack should be the exception rather than the rule.  It should never be the first attack of a siege unless there is overwhelming verified evidence that the enemy is extremely week.  In a siege, Shock attack is equivalent to the me storming of a fortified position after a breach in the walls has been achieved.  Until then progress is measured by digging ever closer the assault trenches, the effects of attrition upon the defenders resulting from cutting supply lines, disease and intermittent long range trebuchet and archery fire.

Shock attack places more emphasis on the firepower values but most players who rush to use it overlook the effect of fortifications.  Rushing a shock attack against any defender who has any sort of fortification level is usually a boon for the defenders for the damage inflicted by superior enemy firepower will be mitigated by their fortification level whereas the attacker who almost certainly will have a lower entrenchment level (and it will always be zero if they shock attack immediately upon arrival in the hex) than the defenders, is fully exposed to the full force of defender firepower, even if that is inferior to the attackers own firepower values.

An unsuccessful Shock Attack is much more damaging to the attacker than a failed Deliberate Attack.  The malus of failure is not fully captured by the Combat Report. Failure results in significant unit debilitation as measured by fatigue, morale and disruption levels.  All intangibles not captured by the Combat Report but key inputs into the combat algorithms.  To follow up a failed Shock Attack with another Shock Attack after a couple of days resting in between, will usually not be sufficient to reduce the fatigue, morale and disruption levels.  Instead what is being set up is a carousel of failure feeding upon itself.

Alfred

I actually was not even aware that the attacker benefited from their sides fortification levels, assuming the fortifications only applied to the defender. That is invaluable information!

Also tracking with the context you are giving on the need for restraint with Shock Attacks. By the end of the campaign I very seldom used it - learning the hard way from a few earlier attacks that it is more akin to finishing off a defeated enemy with a bayonet charge.

On a different note Alfred, you wouldn't happen to know the answer to the earlier question I posed (post 97) on Chinese zombie formations would you?
DesertWolf101
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RE: Revenge of the Enterprise

Post by DesertWolf101 »

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101

Singapore Crossing



Image
Most of the report looks very good, but the low number of enemy vehicles destroyed suggests you have few anti-tank guns. Tanks are a big problem for Allied infantry in 1941-42.

Your conclusion is correct. I unfortunately lost one of the AT batteries as part of the retreat, leaving me with a lower number of AT guns in Singapore.
Alfred
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RE: Revenge of the Enterprise

Post by Alfred »

The bayonet charge is a better analogy than the one I provided.
 
There is very little of AE which is likely to stump me.  There are reasons why I may not provide a specific answer.
 
There had been an early bug involving Chinese HQs not returning.  That bug was squashed.  With regard to the "zombie" Chinese units, my hesitation in answering is because notwithstanding the earlier fix there might still be a potential bug.  I don't get Chinese non infantry units destroyed so I haven't witnessed any bug, and no one ever brought it to michaelm75au's attention in the Tech sub forum but that is not conclusive for several reasons.  Rule number one of bug fixing, the coder goes in to fix the identified bug not to ferret out any other related bugs.  So with appropriate caveat ....
 
Destroyed non infantry/HQ Chinese LCUs should automatically reappear after 30 days as a shell.  However that should be of no comfort to you because destroyed Chinese artillery or flak units would then need to access the Chinese pools for their reconstitution.  There is precious little in the way of monthly build rates for Chinese artillery tubes and flak.
 
Bottom line, don't get Chinese artillery units destroyed.  You don't have many to begin with and you are always on a knife edge in terms of maintaining their authorised TOE.
 
Alfred
DesertWolf101
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RE: Revenge of the Enterprise

Post by DesertWolf101 »

ORIGINAL: Alfred

The bayonet charge is a better analogy than the one I provided.

There is very little of AE which is likely to stump me.  There are reasons why I may not provide a specific answer.

There had been an early bug involving Chinese HQs not returning.  That bug was squashed.  With regard to the "zombie" Chinese units, my hesitation in answering is because notwithstanding the earlier fix there might still be a potential bug.  I don't get Chinese non infantry units destroyed so I haven't witnessed any bug, and no one ever brought it to michaelm75au's attention in the Tech sub forum but that is not conclusive for several reasons.  Rule number one of bug fixing, the coder goes in to fix the identified bug not to ferret out any other related bugs.  So with appropriate caveat ....

Destroyed non infantry/HQ Chinese LCUs should automatically reappear after 30 days as a shell.  However that should be of no comfort to you because destroyed Chinese artillery or flak units would then need to access the Chinese pools for their reconstitution.  There is precious little in the way of monthly build rates for Chinese artillery tubes and flak.

Bottom line, don't get Chinese artillery units destroyed.  You don't have many to begin with and you are always on a knife edge in terms of maintaining their authorised TOE.

Alfred

Thanks!
DesertWolf101
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RE: Revenge of the Enterprise

Post by DesertWolf101 »

January 24, 1942

Submarines

O24 strikes AMC Aikoku Maru with a torpedo off Kendari, moderately damaging her.

S/SW Pacific

Unlike yesterday, our superior search assets allow us to launch the first strike of the day. 51 SBD-3 dive-bombers escorted by 27 Wildcats from the Saratoga are met by a Japanese fighter CAP of 25 Zeros and 2 Alf Float Planes. Thanks to some superb escort work by the Wildcats, particularly the battle hardened Enterprise fighters, all the SBDs make it through. Nevertheless, even with 51 SBDs diving in only a single bomb hit was registered on the light cruiser Katori.

14 SBD-3s from the Yorktown – for some reason unescorted – then approach the Japanese carriers. 6 of them astutely withdrew leaving 8 SBDs charging in. The reorganized Japanese CAP shot down 7 of them with the last one going in only to be destroyed by flak. Not a good start to the day!

In the afternoon, the Japanese finally find us and launch their first strike of the turn against the Yorktown group. Luckily, Most of the Japanese fighter strength was left to guard the carriers, leaving only 2 Zeros to escort 25 Kates charging in. 13 Buffalos and 15 Wildcats tore them to shreds, leaving only 7 Kates to deliver their attack where they missed.

The Saratoga group goes in again in the afternoon, this time with 19 Wildcats escorting 43 SBD-3s. The Enterprise Wildcats do a stellar job once more, keeping all SBD bombers intact for the attack. This time the SBDs do better – 3 1,000lb bomb hits, delivered by what I think was the Enterprise SBD squadron on board the Saratoga (based on the bombing accuracy stat), leave the Zuikaku a raging inferno. Another 1,000lb bomb hit was also put into the light cruiser Kashima. The Zuikaku would make it to the next night when she would sink beneath the waves. The revenge of the Enterprise! [8D]

A light cruiser/destroyer task force I sent to intercept the New Caldeonia invasion force finished the job during the night, sinking the last couple of ships remaining after last turn’s air strikes.

The Japanese 4th Division takes Gau Island, finishing off the remnants of my base force there. It is now trapped in the island however.

Java

Likely due to the events in the South Pacific, the main Japanese CV group is observed retracing back its path towards Rabaul. The damaged cruisers take the opportunity to make sail for Australia, where they would all eventually arrive safely and be repaired.

The Japanese sweep Soerabaja with 22 Zeros, but my still robust CAP of almost 40 fighters still manages to inflict painful losses on the IJN fighters. We both lose about a dozen fighters each.

China

Japanese bombers pound the retreating Chinese forces from Wenchow, while the large Japanese army arrives at Pingsiang, where the hastily assembled Chinese army is digging in to resist.

-------

With the Zuikaku down and with his fighter and bomber wings heavily depleted - I prepare to press on my attacks. Given the proximity to my bases, particularly Noumea, I also have the luxury of retiring the depleted squadrons and shuttling in fresh ones to the carriers.
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Lowpe
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RE: Revenge of the Enterprise

Post by Lowpe »



I use shock attacks very often. However, I almost never use it for the entire stack of units in a hex.

Armor is almost always used to shock attack when the Allies have minimal AT presence early on. During a siege, once forts are knocked down to where I can take the base, often I carefully pick out an infantry unit to shock attack while the other infantry deliberate attacks to speed up the pace of conquests.

I also heavily use Reserve no pursuit in defensive battles,often putting up to 25% or more of the troops in this position. Reserve pursuit gets used too, just not as much.

If you are going to be knocked out of a hex, putting troops into reserve mode can minimize some losses and lets you pick where the majority of losses will come from if you have multiple units in hex.

Combat modes are very powerful and quite the mini game that most players don't appreciate.
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BBfanboy
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RE: Revenge of the Enterprise

Post by BBfanboy »

Nice job on Zuikaku. I suspect you will not catch Shokaku fleeing away.
Two cautions on using Oz as a repair base:
- ship lots of fuel there for the ships
- KB often does a "tour around Australia" early in the game when Oz has virtually no fighter defence. Of course the idea of the tour is to pick off convoys and ships in port. Before I have air superiority, I never use Oz for repairs that take more than three or four days.
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
DesertWolf101
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RE: Revenge of the Enterprise

Post by DesertWolf101 »

ORIGINAL: Lowpe



I use shock attacks very often. However, I almost never use it for the entire stack of units in a hex.

Armor is almost always used to shock attack when the Allies have minimal AT presence early on. During a siege, once forts are knocked down to where I can take the base, often I carefully pick out an infantry unit to shock attack while the other infantry deliberate attacks to speed up the pace of conquests.

I also heavily use Reserve no pursuit in defensive battles,often putting up to 25% or more of the troops in this position. Reserve pursuit gets used too, just not as much.

If you are going to be knocked out of a hex, putting troops into reserve mode can minimize some losses and lets you pick where the majority of losses will come from if you have multiple units in hex.

Combat modes are very powerful and quite the mini game that most players don't appreciate.

I rarely used reserve (no pursuit) but your point on selecting the unit to take the brunt of the losses in a doomed battle is very intriguing. Out of curiosity, if half of your units are set to deliberate and the other half at shock does the combat result report the battle as a shock or deliberate?
DesertWolf101
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RE: Revenge of the Enterprise

Post by DesertWolf101 »

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Nice job on Zuikaku. I suspect you will not catch Shokaku fleeing away.
Two cautions on using Oz as a repair base:
- ship lots of fuel there for the ships
- KB often does a "tour around Australia" early in the game when Oz has virtually no fighter defence. Of course the idea of the tour is to pick off convoys and ships in port. Before I have air superiority, I never use Oz for repairs that take more than three or four days.


Thanks, and once again your assumption is correct!

I in fact did suffer quite a bit from a lack of fuel at Oz - took me some time to adjust my naval presence there to match logistical capacity. I did not have much of an issue with fighter cover however as Oz had plenty of fighters by the time the KB started showing itself in proximity. I made it a priority to shift air defense there.
DesertWolf101
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RE: Revenge of the Enterprise

Post by DesertWolf101 »

January 25, 1942

Submarines

Nothing of note.

S/SW Pacific

A full blown retreat by my opponent became clear as some of his vessels run into my task forces as the Imperial Navy races northwards. This included the Shokaku, which ran smack into my replenishment task force that I mistakenly brought too close to the fighting.

A confused bout of air strikes subsequently broke out during the day. The Shokaku sent 40 bombers to sink my two AOs of the replenishment group, while further south the Saratoga squadrons knock out five destroyers, a torpedo boat, and the light cruiser Yubari.

Malaya

My opponent launches a concentrated IJN bomber offensive on Singapore’s airfield, likely trying to impede fort construction and eroding my supply.

Java

More Zero sweeps over Soerabaja with about equal losses on both sides.

China

Heavy bombing raids hit my troops at Pingsiang today.

------

With its parting gift, the Shokaku was able to continue at flank speed back towards Truk. I couldn't catch the carrier, but I did wreck the bulk of its escorts and now I need to hunt down the transports it left behind.
DesertWolf101
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RE: Revenge of the Enterprise

Post by DesertWolf101 »

January 26, 1942

Submarines

A Japanese PB catches O21 off the coast of Ternate and leaves it with moderate damage from four depth charge hits.

S/SW Pacific

I failed to hit the transport convoys this turn, but I did finally locate them - my naval assets are now giving chase.

Malaya

IJA bombers join in on the air offensive on Singapore.

China

The Flying Tigers intercept the daily Japanese bombing of Pingsiang and inflict heavy losses, particularly on the escorting Oscar fighters.

-------

15 of my Flying Tiger pilots are now aces with at least 5 kills.
DesertWolf101
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RE: Revenge of the Enterprise

Post by DesertWolf101 »

January 27, 1942

Submarines

Nothing of note.

S/SW Pacific

Finally arriving in the battle zone from Pearl Harbor, the Lexington strikes first with its aircraft, wrecking three APs and two AKs. The Yorktown group then pounces in, pulverizing another AP and two AKs with 1,000-pound bombs. I will press on the attack to finish off the helpless transports tomorrow

Farther to the north, I had received some COMINT that indicated a naval guard unit was on its way to Tulagi. I sent a light cruiser force to the area in the hopes of finding the Japanese convoy and they intercepted today. Two PBs, an AK, and an AP were sunk, sending the naval guard unit to the bottom.

Burma

Some Royal Thai Army units finally showed up next to Moulmein. I pummeled them with heavy and medium bombers this turn.

-----

In terms of air supply, I was packing Ledo with as many cargo aircraft and medium bombers as it could hand to go over the hump and supply China. I was also using my B-17Ds to transport supply into Singapore from Rangoon.
DesertWolf101
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RE: Revenge of the Enterprise

Post by DesertWolf101 »

January 28, 1942

Submarines

SS Trout finds a Japanese convoy near Wakkanai but is beset by Mk14 problems.

S/SW Pacific

I dispatched a destroyer task force to hunt down the convoy remnants. They first find an intact AP, which they quickly put down. They then heavily damage a group of two AKs and an AP, which they encounter next. My carrier wings then finish off the remaining damaged transports.

Singapore

The Japanese attempt another attack in Singapore. The deliberate attack reduces fortifications to level three but only manages a 1 to 7 ratio. 5,000 Japanese casualties with 54 combat squads and 20 vehicles destroyed for 1,5000 Allied with 40 combat squads destroyed.

---------

Something very strange happened in China this turn that I don’t quite understand. I raised it with my opponent at the end of the campaign and he didn’t seem to understand it either, or to be more precise he didn’t respond to that particular question.

The back-story is that I advanced an army from Kanhsien and threatened to encircle the Japanese army attempting to take Pingsiang from my second Chinese army dug in there. When my opponent realized the threat, he retreated his infantry units but left 10 artillery battalions/regiments at Pingsiang. During the turn, three things happened
- His infantry units and my advancing army arrived simultaneously at hex 82,55 just southeast of Pingsiang (therefore artillery units at Pingsiang were not cut off as far as I can tell)
- His ten artillery units bombarded my dug in Chinese army at Pingsiang
- All ten artillery units (2,785 troops, 256 guns, 103 vehicles) were wiped out at Pingsiang by attrition.

I may be missing something obvious here, but this kinda stumped me. Any ideas?
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Lowpe
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RE: Revenge of the Enterprise

Post by Lowpe »

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101


I rarely used reserve (no pursuit) but your point on selecting the unit to take the brunt of the losses in a doomed battle is very intriguing. Out of curiosity, if half of your units are set to deliberate and the other half at shock does the combat result report the battle as a shock or deliberate?

It only takes one unit set to shock attack to list the battle as a shock attack.

Reserve no pursuit works really well for the Allies in China. Read up on the mechanics of it, and give it a try in your next game. I think you will be surprised at how effective it is.
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RE: Revenge of the Enterprise

Post by BBfanboy »

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101

Something very strange happened in China this turn that I don’t quite understand. I raised it with my opponent at the end of the campaign and he didn’t seem to understand it either, or to be more precise he didn’t respond to that particular question.

The back-story is that I advanced an army from Kanhsien and threatened to encircle the Japanese army attempting to take Pingsiang from my second Chinese army dug in there. When my opponent realized the threat, he retreated his infantry units but left 10 artillery battalions/regiments at Pingsiang. During the turn, three things happened
- His infantry units and my advancing army arrived simultaneously at hex 82,55 just southeast of Pingsiang (therefore artillery units at Pingsiang were not cut off as far as I can tell)
- His ten artillery units bombarded my dug in Chinese army at Pingsiang
- All ten artillery units (2,785 troops, 256 guns, 103 vehicles) were wiped out at Pingsiang by attrition.

I may be missing something obvious here, but this kinda stumped me. Any ideas?
Units should only be wiped out by attrition when they have no complete supply path and are out of supply already. If they have no AV and the enemy has lots of AV, the attrition seems much more likely to happen.
The IJA infantry and your unit arriving in the hex at the same time should mean that the hex is not controlled by either side. But that does not mean the IJA has a clear route for supply to reach them if there is no road or RR nearby and you have control of most nearby bases.
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
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Lowpe
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RE: Revenge of the Enterprise

Post by Lowpe »

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101

- All ten artillery units (2,785 troops, 256 guns, 103 vehicles) were wiped out at Pingsiang by attrition.




It is still very early, but that is a horrendous loss, combined with other setbacks in China spell real trouble for Japan.
DesertWolf101
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RE: Revenge of the Enterprise

Post by DesertWolf101 »

I should have provided a screenshot to add more context on the event - here it is:

Image
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Alfred
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RE: Revenge of the Enterprise

Post by Alfred »

LCU attrition is both more complicated and simpler than most players understand.
 
Usually players only see the wiped out by attrition message after the conclusion of battle, during the housekeeping phase.  This obscures the code connection with combat.  Common decisive combat results which a player sees immediately at the end of combat is either a surrender or in the case of Japanese LCUs, a bansai attack.  A delayed combat outcome but still directly related to the combat result, is the wiped out by attrition outcome.  The most common situations which will result in this delayed outcome stems from an inability to retreat or lack of supply or general "loss of hope".  As one needs some Assault Value to launch a banzai attack, when there isn't any AV you will tend to see Japanese LCUs fall victim to the attrition.
 
Less obvious (because the message is not displayed) attrition is when there is no combat but a LCU is "surrounded" and devices start to be destroyed, generating VPs in the process.  Basically when there isn't the supply and conditions to repair disabled devices, you start to enter the attrition algorithms.
 
The above however is not set in concrete in as much as when LCUs are close to the threshold of attrition being applied, they will just "jump" the threshold and go directly to the wiped out by attrition stage.
 
If we go to the screenshot shown in post #137, we see there is no retreat path from Pingsiang for Japanese LCUs.  Supply exits via a hexside controlled by your side but it also has to go through your controlled centre of the hex first before exiting.  Also the Japanese LCUs would have definitely had no Assault Value at all at the conclusion of combat so no bansai attack would ever be forthcoming.  Assuming that the units had expended all their supply in conducting their bombardment attack we are left with the classic situation of:
 
  • no retreat path
  • lack of supply - particularly important in terms of rebalancing the post combat ready/disabled device ratios
  • general "loss of hope"
Thus when the "Fat Lady sings", no surprise that the wiped out by attrition situation arose.
 
Alfred
DesertWolf101
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RE: Revenge of the Enterprise

Post by DesertWolf101 »

ORIGINAL: Alfred

LCU attrition is both more complicated and simpler than most players understand.

Usually players only see the wiped out by attrition message after the conclusion of battle, during the housekeeping phase.  This obscures the code connection with combat.  Common decisive combat results which a player sees immediately at the end of combat is either a surrender or in the case of Japanese LCUs, a bansai attack.  A delayed combat outcome but still directly related to the combat result, is the wiped out by attrition outcome.  The most common situations which will result in this delayed outcome stems from an inability to retreat or lack of supply or general "loss of hope".  As one needs some Assault Value to launch a banzai attack, when there isn't any AV you will tend to see Japanese LCUs fall victim to the attrition.

Less obvious (because the message is not displayed) attrition is when there is no combat but a LCU is "surrounded" and devices start to be destroyed, generating VPs in the process.  Basically when there isn't the supply and conditions to repair disabled devices, you start to enter the attrition algorithms.

The above however is not set in concrete in as much as when LCUs are close to the threshold of attrition being applied, they will just "jump" the threshold and go directly to the wiped out by attrition stage.

If we go to the screenshot shown in post #137, we see there is no retreat path from Pingsiang for Japanese LCUs.  Supply exits via a hexside controlled by your side but it also has to go through your controlled centre of the hex first before exiting.  Also the Japanese LCUs would have definitely had no Assault Value at all at the conclusion of combat so no bansai attack would ever be forthcoming.  Assuming that the units had expended all their supply in conducting their bombardment attack we are left with the classic situation of:
  • no retreat path
  • lack of supply - particularly important in terms of rebalancing the post combat ready/disabled device ratios
  • general "loss of hope"
Thus when the "Fat Lady sings", no surprise that the wiped out by attrition situation arose.

Alfred

Very illuminating - thanks Alfred
DesertWolf101
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RE: Revenge of the Enterprise

Post by DesertWolf101 »

Jan 29 - 30, 1942

Submarines

I-3 snuck into the shallow waters off Victoria (Canada), which made it easier for AM Ungava to engage and damage it with 6 depth charge hits.

S/SW Pacific

As the mopping up operations near Fiji reach their conclusion, the damaged Japanese light cruisers Kashima and Katori are finished off by dive-bombers from the Saratoga.

The Betty bomber unit from Rabaul caused some more trouble, sinking the AP Rangatira, which was thankfully empty, close to Port Moresby.

Philippines

A major Japanese attack goes in against Bataan today, resulting in 1 to 2 odds in my favor. The huge number of disabled Japanese squads, guns, and vehicles (more than 500 all together) should hopefully grant the defenders a week or two more to hold on.

China

Chinese forces engage the retreating Japanese army with a bombardment on the open ground. The Japanese army is shown to be attempting to retreat into the rough terrain towards Hankow. Looks like my opponent is still trying tor each the army next to Changsha.

------

The naval battle of Fiji greatly restored the confidence I lost with the loss of the Enterprise. Besides the loss of Zuikaku, the number of APs sunk in particular should bedevil my opponent's future invasion plans.
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