Bug Report 2D10 CRT

[JJeffreyDonahue]

Sep/Oct 1939 Axis 3 attacking Lodz (2 factories) with 56.5 (rounds to 57) factors against 10 with 1 Polish unit in Lodz flipped. Raw odds using 2D10 table with fractional odds +11.4 with +2 modifier for flipped corps and -2 for 2 factories in hex = 11.4 adjusted odds. Game is returning +12.4 odds and I have identified the culprit as being the HQ I am including in the attack (von Bock attacking, not using HQ support.)

Same impulse attacking Warsaw (1 factory) with 36 factors to 8 factors with the Polish HQ in Warsaw flipped. Raw odds +9 with +2 for flipped corps and -1 for factory = +10. Game is returning +9 and I have identified the culprit as the game deducting -2 for a city with one factory. From other attacks I have made in other games I have observed that the game deducts -0 for a city with 0 factories, -2 for a city with 2 factories, -3 for a city with 3 factories, all of which are correct. However, deducting -2 for a city with 1 factory is incorrect, should be -1 modifier.

Until Slitherine fixes this adjust dice roll manually. -1 on Lodz and +1 on Warsaw.

I have the file saved and can send it to the developer if he wants to see it. However, I can't upload it here as the file format is not supported.

[ssiviour]

ORIGINAL: JJeffreyDonahue

Sep/Oct 1939 Axis 3 attacking Lodz (2 factories) with 56.5 (rounds to 57) factors against 10 with 1 Polish unit in Lodz flipped. Raw odds using 2D10 table with fractional odds +11.4 with +2 modifier for flipped corps and -2 for 2 factories in hex = 11.4 adjusted odds. Game is returning +12.4 odds and I have identified the culprit as being the HQ I am including in the attack (von Bock attacking, not using HQ support.)

Same impulse attacking Warsaw (1 factory) with 36 factors to 8 factors with the Polish HQ in Warsaw flipped. Raw odds +9 with +2 for flipped corps and -1 for factory = +10. Game is returning +9 and I have identified the culprit as the game deducting -2 for a city with one factory. From other attacks I have made in other games I have observed that the game deducts -0 for a city with 0 factories, -2 for a city with 2 factories, -3 for a city with 3 factories, all of which are correct. However, deducting -2 for a city with 1 factory is incorrect, should be -1 modifier.

Until Slitherine fixes this adjust dice roll manually. -1 on Lodz and +1 on Warsaw.

I have the file saved and can send it to the developer if he wants to see it. However, I can't upload it here as the file format is not supported.

The modifier is actually -1 for a city then followed further by a -1 for each printed factory in the city, so a city with 1 factories should be a -2 modifier, 2 factories would be a -3.

Attacks including HQ and Engineer gain +1 for each unit (Engineers each factor), without using HQ support or Engineer benefit, simply by being included in the attack.

The 2 D 10 Land CRT Chart and info is now accessable in game by going to the help menu

[JJeffreyDonahue]

Not according to the 2D10 chart I downloaded from the ADG web site. There is no modifier for cities or attacking with HQ on that chart. The 2D10 chart included with the game (which is not readily accessible that I can tell) seems to be missing a lot of information. Also, because it is does not seem to be readily accessible I use the .jpg file of the 2D10 that ADG has posted. If it isn't correct, then ADG should correct it.

However, if you are right about the city modifier, then there is another problem. Cities with 0 factories should have -1 modifier, but the game has a 0 modifier, 2 factories should have -3 but game has -2, and 3 factories -4 but the game has -3. The only correct modifier would be -2 for a city with 1 factory, which is what the game is doing. Either way something is screwed up with the city/factory modifiers.

Part of the problem here is likely due to ADG updating the charts and Slitherene being behind (very likely way behind) on making necessary changes. I spent a few years being a playtester before Matrix took over development of Computer WiF but have not played the game in about 15 years. I am very disappointed to see how little progress has been made in that time. A lot of rules still have not been programmed and there seems to be a lot of bugs. Slitherene assures me that game development is continuing, but to be honest I expect to be dead before I ever see a finished product (in another 15 years I will be 80). For the most part the old beta version that I still have on my computer plays better than what I just shelled out $100 for. I had no idea that after 15 years Matrix/Slitherene was actually marketing an unfinished product.

[Courtenay]

The 2d10 chart the game uses may be seen by going to the help menu (right most tab on main form) and picking 2 D 10 Land CRT. If this is not available to you, you are not using the latest publicly available version of MWiF.

This table is two pages long; the city modifiers are described on the second page.

I do not know what the latest ADG 2d10 table says, nor does it matter. MWiF is based on the RAW 7 rules and tables, and always will be.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: JJeffreyDonahue

Not according to the 2D10 chart I downloaded from the ADG web site. There is no modifier for cities or attacking with HQ on that chart. The 2D10 chart included with the game (which is not readily accessible that I can tell) seems to be missing a lot of information. Also, because it is does not seem to be readily accessible I use the .jpg file of the 2D10 that ADG has posted. If it isn't correct, then ADG should correct it.

However, if you are right about the city modifier, then there is another problem. Cities with 0 factories should have -1 modifier, but the game has a 0 modifier, 2 factories should have -3 but game has -2, and 3 factories -4 but the game has -3. The only correct modifier would be -2 for a city with 1 factory, which is what the game is doing. Either way something is screwed up with the city/factory modifiers.

Part of the problem here is likely due to ADG updating the charts and Slitherene being behind (very likely way behind) on making necessary changes. I spent a few years being a playtester before Matrix took over development of Computer WiF but have not played the game in about 15 years. I am very disappointed to see how little progress has been made in that time. A lot of rules still have not been programmed and there seems to be a lot of bugs. Slitherene assures me that game development is continuing, but to be honest I expect to be dead before I ever see a finished product (in another 15 years I will be 80). For the most part the old beta version that I still have on my computer plays better than what I just shelled out $100 for. I had no idea that after 15 years Matrix/Slitherene was actually marketing an unfinished product.

The code appears correct when I play the game, as I have been doing for 6+ hours a week for 4+ years, using the 2D10 table.

Attach a saved game with one of your posts and described exactly what you see that you believe is wrong. Someone (possibly me) in the forum will check to see if it really is a problem (or not).

Working from text descriptions "the game is doing xxx wrong" is very difficult to respond to without examples.

[JJeffreyDonahue]

I cannot attach a saved game as the forum does not recognize the file format. I can email a saved game as an attachment if there is someplace to email it to.

[michaelbaldur]

ORIGINAL: JJeffreyDonahue

I cannot attach a saved game as the forum does not recognize the file format. I can email a saved game as an attachment if there is someplace to email it to.

just post it as a zip file .. upload and embed in post

[CanInf]

strange my game crashes if Germany does the Lodz attack in 39 (netplay)

[CanInf]

see attached file. If germany attacks lodz. The game crashes, for me.

[JJeffreyDonahue]

For the time being I am going to keep an eye on this as I think part or all of the problem stems from the fact that I didn't know that the game was adding +1 for an attack with an HQ. Since cities tend to be well defended I frequently attack them with an HQ to use HQ support. The +1 from the HQ (not counting HQ support added later) offsets the -1 from attacking a city. Since those two modifiers cancelled each other out it looked to me like attacking a city with no factory did not have the city modifier. Since where possible I am playing the game with the current RAW and ADG 2D10 tables, I will continue to adjust the dice roll manually to get rid of both the +1 for the HQ and the -1 for the city until Matrix gets around to fixing it. If in the meantime I find any apparent errors in the game's combat calculations I will revisit it and see if I can upload a .zip file as the developer suggested. For now I think the issue is settled and I think this thread can be closed. Thanks for the help all.

[Courtenay]

ORIGINAL: JJeffreyDonahue

For the time being I am going to keep an eye on this as I think part or all of the problem stems from the fact that I didn't know that the game was adding +1 for an attack with an HQ. Since cities tend to be well defended I frequently attack them with an HQ to use HQ support. The +1 from the HQ (not counting HQ support added later) offsets the -1 from attacking a city. Since those two modifiers cancelled each other out it looked to me like attacking a city with no factory did not have the city modifier. Since where possible I am playing the game with the current RAW and ADG 2D10 tables, I will continue to adjust the dice roll manually to get rid of both the +1 for the HQ and the -1 for the city until Matrix gets around to fixing it. If in the meantime I find any apparent errors in the game's combat calculations I will revisit it and see if I can upload a .zip file as the developer suggested. For now I think the issue is settled and I think this thread can be closed. Thanks for the help all.

Matrix will never change the city modifiers. Matrix has based the game on RAW 7, plus FAQ answers, plus the 2008 annual, plus some agreed upon changes because MWiF is a computer program. The game rules are locked at that point. MWiF is a computer program. Constantly changing what is supposed to be implemented would be the greatest source of bugs that I can imagine. (Well, aside from me writing the code, that is. [:)])

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: JJeffreyDonahue

For the time being I am going to keep an eye on this as I think part or all of the problem stems from the fact that I didn't know that the game was adding +1 for an attack with an HQ. Since cities tend to be well defended I frequently attack them with an HQ to use HQ support. The +1 from the HQ (not counting HQ support added later) offsets the -1 from attacking a city. Since those two modifiers cancelled each other out it looked to me like attacking a city with no factory did not have the city modifier. Since where possible I am playing the game with the current RAW and ADG 2D10 tables, I will continue to adjust the dice roll manually to get rid of both the +1 for the HQ and the -1 for the city until Matrix gets around to fixing it. If in the meantime I find any apparent errors in the game's combat calculations I will revisit it and see if I can upload a .zip file as the developer suggested. For now I think the issue is settled and I think this thread can be closed. Thanks for the help all.

Bear in mind that the city modifiers can never be positive. The best the attacker can do is get them to zero.

[JJeffreyDonahue]

I would be more accepting of this answer if Matrix had ever bothered finishing developing the game. I think is is reasonable for a player to expect that 15 years after Matrix took the game over from Chris Marinacci that all of the RAW 7 rules, such as Frogmen, Naval Supply units, etc. would have been programmed. As I have said in another post I expect to be dead before this game is ever finished.

[JJeffreyDonahue]

[/quote]

Matrix will never change the city modifiers. Matrix has based the game on RAW 7, plus FAQ answers, plus the 2008 annual, plus some agreed upon changes because MWiF is a computer program. The game rules are locked at that point. MWiF is a computer program. Constantly changing what is supposed to be implemented would be the greatest source of bugs that I can imagine. (Well, aside from me writing the code, that is. )

Sorry about that last post. I meant to quote this statement along with what I said about the lack of progress on the game after 15 years.

[paulderynck]

You seem to think Matrix has a team of programmers who worked on this game and are still doing so. In fact this has all been done by one developer, working alone and who has displayed remarkable fortitude in maintaining and enhancing the code not only for 8 years prior to release but also for the last seven years since the game was published.

[davidachamberlain]

I agree with Paul on this.

This game is being supported by a skeleton team of 1.

Maybe there may be a future re-development project to make everything current, but considering the effort to get the current version developed and getting all updates and fixes in place, I really have no expectations on that.

At best, there could be some cherry picking like changing the map or some minor updates related to the rules, but until the remaining scenarios, optional rules, AI support for solo players in some starter scenarios, and potentially increasing the number of netplay players, there is a very long roadmap that is proceeding slowly (again in the hands of a single individual). It has been a couple years since that roadmap was posted and progress beyond fixing defects, as discovered, has not yet enabled those. I have trouble imagining the current new feature backlog being completed within 3 or even 5 years.

I think we all need to be very appreciative that the current updates are being made. Many other companies would called this done and discontinued several years ago.

Dave