Why would someone want the mixed units

[Jdane]

Sure, but operational considerations aside, the question the thread is hovering around now is : does front line troops in unit A provide protection to rear line troops in unit B which has no front line because it's pure rear line troops?

As in, if enemy rifle company C3 attacks artillery battery B6, do they get a field day or does rifle company A1 get in the middle?

[Malevolence]

Ah, sorry. Thought it was the OP.

I can't make heads or tails of the graphical combat screen.

[:D]

Do those squares represent distances? The bonus traits (e.g. commando, sniper, banner, etc.) seem to be at the edges.

[Jdane]

No, I believe squares are just placeholders for sub units.
And I fail to see the relevance of bonus traits here.
But you're right in that the answer probably rather lies in the detailed reports screen.

[Malevolence]

The traits are not the issue. The point is, is their placement on the combat screen's squares important. Does it reveal information about the UI to the player?

[WeaverofBrokenThreads]

ORIGINAL: springel

But are the different rear area classes of units not shielded by front units of all the participating units?

[/quote]

I believe they are. The stacks are always calculated on per turn basis, so, for example, if you force a unit to retreat, you'll get less overfire -mods%. I think the game doesn't care what unit belongs to what stack.

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

In any event, the issue is whether you can maneuver (i.e. move and shoot) your indirect fire artillery independently of direct fire forces. All other things being equal, with artillery locked inside a direct fire unit counter, you are sacrificing the flexibility to mass and the potential for economy of force.

Again, artillery will fire in direct fire. Having them outside of your TO&E should only be done if you cannot pay the cost of a proper army for the following reasons:

* There is no downside to having artillery in your table of organization.
* You can apply *insane* posture modifiers for artillery; rocket artillery with siege posture can reduce a city's defenders to rubble, even after the -50% mod to attacking in ruins.
* Mechanized artillery can *increase* your mobility. Motorized artillery will not slow you down either.
* It allows you to counter-attack enemy artillery, so you are not defenseless.
* Friendly units will defend your artillery. You basically get very high firepower/high attacks per round units that *cannot* be attacked and constantly deal damage.

Don't be a marauder. Use combined arms. You are better than those other scrubs on the planet - sorry, on YOUR planet... and in YOUR galaxy. *wink*

EDIT: The only time rear line units will be attacked, if there is a frontline, is if the enemy gets a break-through. Then they will have a field day.

[Jdane]

Okay, then what I should have understood earlier is that you were saying : it's a bad idea to leave an independent pure artillery unit alone in a hex because if they're attacked and can't repel the attackers with their firepower before they reach their lines, the canons servants are going to have a bad day.

But if you leave an infantry unit, for example, along with the arty in the same hex, the foot troops will try and defend the canons, although they're in a different unit. Am I correct?

[WeaverofBrokenThreads]

I believe so, yes. But the idea of having independent artillery is to "leave them behind the lines". Now you can generally avoid mishaps because the basic artillery is range-1, but in general, it is easy to "oops" the artillery and let an enemy go in and obliterate it.

[Jdane]

Okay, thanks for elaborating.

[DeltaV112]

Something that might be a relevant interaction is that direct attacks into a hex generate large numbers of recon points during the combat. Indirect attacks don't and therefore if you have poor recon on the hex enemy units are going to be getting the hidden defender bonus to their hitpoints.

[Malevolence]

ORIGINAL: WeaverofBrokenThreads
Don't be a marauder. Use combined arms. You are better than those other scrubs on the planet - sorry, on YOUR planet... and in YOUR galaxy. *wink*

I think we are crossing terms.

When I write "unit counter", I mean a separate, controllable counter on the map that has a TO&E (e.g. 500 troops with 500 bikes). The OOB contains some number of these unit counters of different types and the OHQ.

A "unit counter" filled with artillery is great. A counter mixed with direct and indirect fire models in its TO&E is not optimal in my opinion--although I could be wrong if combat resolution has some hidden attributes.

Militia Guards Regiment unit counters sometime begin with irregular artillery models mixed into the TO&E of their unit counters. I would rather use combined arms following the principles of mass and economy of force; direct and use that Irregular Artillery force as a separate battalion and in general support of any frontline force (e.g. my main effort).

However, As Jdane pointed out, the engagement model and screen used to resolve combat is a bit of mystery. I've looked at the log as well. It's interesting, but not particularly helpful.

To me, the following graphic just looks like a list. The position of artillery or other supporting elements are not modeled in front to rear echelons. Each attacks with their model's design attributes and modifiers.

[WeaverofBrokenThreads]

I don't think we are crossing terms. I've pointed out, in (sort of) bullet points why you want artillery in your OOB. It is inevitable that if you take siege or storm OOB that you will have counters with artillery in them and that is in my opinion optimal. Independent artillery is useless. They are a liability more than they are a boon.

I understand the idea to separate arty from direct combat counters, because if you burn your AP on ranged attacks, then you don't have AP to attack. But in direct fire you are not wasting those APs. The arty will still fire and do it's job. It will force units into retreat and allow your infantry to break-through and wreak havoc.

If you want to blitzkrieg and mobility warfare, then what you want is independent mechanized arms. Light tanks, mechanized infantry, maybe even mechanized artillery - with decent armor they don't have to worry about being "caught in enemy territory". But artillery - the guns themselves - being independent are not very useful, even considering the fact that they let you attack things independently. At range 1, it is simply not worth it. You want missile and rocket artillery for this task.

I feel like this is way outside of the OPs topic, especially if I was to expound on the benefits of rocket/missile artillery, but the bottom point is this: Mixed units = very good.

[GodwinW]

EDIT: woops I missed a whole page of discussion... and I even commented on that 2nd page [&:]


To make things clear: Yes Balto if you attack Ranged with a mixed formation of artillery and non-artillery you lose the action points of the non-artillery units, thereby 'wasting' their turn.
But it might still be worth it to do, depends on the circumstances.
If you attack-move everything attacks and you get the most out of your AP for the unit but you may die, whereas artillery fire in the early game is safe (cannot be counterattacked).

DasTactic does have a video where he goes over the detailed battle report. I loved that he walked me through it it gave me great understanding of how the combat is modeled and I use it to check on things from time to time (why did that Biker Troop almost instantly retreat? for example).

[Kamelpov]

Well in my case I have expected 2 arty design : one light artillery for infantry corps build and one heavy for stand alone.
Cheap arty for mass unit as it can give a cheap counter barrage(infantry gun like german). while the expensive one is mainly for main assault direction.

[GodwinW]

No the front and rear are not displayed visually however like DasTactic said on the previous page and what I alluded to on this page that's modeled by a very hefty attack penalty for attacking 'direct attack' troops in the first 2 rounds: that's closing the distance. Then you have 'Breakthrough' as a signifier that that troop broke through the defenses and can damage the rear line units.