Midgame Major Power Rush - Advice Please
Moderator: Vic
RE: Midgame Major Power Rush - Advice Please
He had over 12K of industrial point so obviously AI is mid late game so I think he is getting wiped due to OOB too small as a good player keep either metal near 0 or industry point at the minimum.
RE: Midgame Major Power Rush - Advice Please
ORIGINAL: Kamelpov
He had over 12K of industrial point so obviously AI is mid late game so I think he is getting wiped due to OOB too small as a good player keep either metal near 0 or industry point at the minimum.
Even so, this level of casualties per turn across a limited front sounds like a multi-tier gap in tech. It does sound like a lack of counters to something - his infantry getting hit by heavily-armoured howitzer-armed tanks and firing back with gas-powered rifles, say - but til we actually see the save there's no point conjecturing.
RE: Midgame Major Power Rush - Advice Please
https://www.mediafire.com/file/vo60utnw ... 0.se1/file
Here you go my last save.
When the fight started the ai was rolling padded armor and autorifles but went to gauss very quickly. I was already in combat armor.
It's the fight in the lava lake gaps. Hot Gates indeed!
Obviously the sand doesn't help in places, I tried to stay on rocky plains where I could. Economically and logistically I was ok apart from the horrific replacement rate. This fight at the hot gates began about 40 turns back and I would have thought I could make some headway. I even built a road to sneak round the top but another major power took that and blocked it off.
I was hoping to break through one of the gates so I could get to their capital which is the nearest city by the volcano.
Here you go my last save.
When the fight started the ai was rolling padded armor and autorifles but went to gauss very quickly. I was already in combat armor.
It's the fight in the lava lake gaps. Hot Gates indeed!
Obviously the sand doesn't help in places, I tried to stay on rocky plains where I could. Economically and logistically I was ok apart from the horrific replacement rate. This fight at the hot gates began about 40 turns back and I would have thought I could make some headway. I even built a road to sneak round the top but another major power took that and blocked it off.
I was hoping to break through one of the gates so I could get to their capital which is the nearest city by the volcano.
RE: Midgame Major Power Rush - Advice Please
Sorry just to add - If it is just a question of tech parity then that's a shame as it means the game will always be a race. But then I've had 2 other games where major AI powers have roll stomped me with just huge huge amounts of units I can only dream of fielding. Without this kind of terrain with the 2 gaps they just ran right over me in 10 or so turns.
All these games have been on different worlds but all were small worlds. I only just noticed the setting to change to normal and huge. I'm trying a new game on a normal size world next to see if it makes a difference having more breathing room?
All these games have been on different worlds but all were small worlds. I only just noticed the setting to change to normal and huge. I'm trying a new game on a normal size world next to see if it makes a difference having more breathing room?
RE: Midgame Major Power Rush - Advice Please
I just gave it a real quick glance and your research is indeed messed up. You are far behind, especially in key military areas!
You should absolutely focus much more on military research, this game is all about war, so 11% investment just isn't going to cut it. Also you are currently researching two linear technologies which have highly diminishing returns and very quickly take ages to progress at all. That's a massive waste on top, especially as you've discovered plenty of powerful military tech ready to be researched! [X(]
By the way, gas powered weapons are also horrible and a serious downgrade from even the tier before. Avoid like the plague.
You should absolutely focus much more on military research, this game is all about war, so 11% investment just isn't going to cut it. Also you are currently researching two linear technologies which have highly diminishing returns and very quickly take ages to progress at all. That's a massive waste on top, especially as you've discovered plenty of powerful military tech ready to be researched! [X(]
By the way, gas powered weapons are also horrible and a serious downgrade from even the tier before. Avoid like the plague.
"Pull and obtain wisdom. Push and invite ruin." ― Cult of LIS
RE: Midgame Major Power Rush - Advice Please
Aha! OK thanks for taking the time. So quick follow up on prioritizing military research... turn the sliders up basically? There isn't a way to choose your research. Is there a method to increase military research over civilian other than the sliders for funding and discovery vs research?
I guess i ran into some redundant troops at first with the auto rifles and padded armor and assumed (wrongly) that the tech parity was in my favour when it clearly wasn't.
Any suggestions for slider settings percentages on military research?
Thanks again
I guess i ran into some redundant troops at first with the auto rifles and padded armor and assumed (wrongly) that the tech parity was in my favour when it clearly wasn't.
Any suggestions for slider settings percentages on military research?
Thanks again
RE: Midgame Major Power Rush - Advice Please
Your main infantry unit (Guards 3) is extremely poor. It's got more or less the worst stats it's possible to roll with it's equipment; the enemy infantry are basically twice as good as yours. This is probably 90% of the problem tbh, since they're the majority of your defence. If you upgrade them en masse to the Grunt 2 then you'll immediately see a 30% improvement in their damage output.
Note that Gas-powered guns are, by default, not as good as automatic rifles. Only use them if ammo if a problem. Otherwise, Autoguns are about 30% better.
You've had some pretty poor rolls for several of the other models as well - your mech artillery is very bad, your machine gunners fairly average. Note that the AI is on version 7 or 8 of most units, you're generally on 2-3. There is a reason for this. Also, if you're playing defense, there's no reason for expensive mech art, use normal artillery.
You have 40k colonists doing nothing. Don't do that, they're useless if they're sat in the colony pool and that's a full T2 zone's worth of people just sitting eating your food surplus and doing nothing useful. Colonists should basically be at 0 at all times; use them the moment they're available. This is 5% of your population doing absolutely sod all; if they were in the army you'd have another full machine gun Army fully entrenched at the front.
You can comfortably raise a full Corp of siege infantry or suchlike behind the lines here and then next turn use them.
I'd advise keeping you OHQs off the front line. One does not send the general over the top.
I get the feeling you don't really understand the model design stuff? Cos a very large portion of your army is really, really bad designs. The Guard probably should've been retired immediately when you saw it had a Base Design value of 78; the range is 70-130 so these guys are barely useful as police, let alone front line troopers. The enemy's soft ATT value is higher than your soft DEF - and ATT has a 50% penalty.
Note that Gas-powered guns are, by default, not as good as automatic rifles. Only use them if ammo if a problem. Otherwise, Autoguns are about 30% better.
You've had some pretty poor rolls for several of the other models as well - your mech artillery is very bad, your machine gunners fairly average. Note that the AI is on version 7 or 8 of most units, you're generally on 2-3. There is a reason for this. Also, if you're playing defense, there's no reason for expensive mech art, use normal artillery.
You have 40k colonists doing nothing. Don't do that, they're useless if they're sat in the colony pool and that's a full T2 zone's worth of people just sitting eating your food surplus and doing nothing useful. Colonists should basically be at 0 at all times; use them the moment they're available. This is 5% of your population doing absolutely sod all; if they were in the army you'd have another full machine gun Army fully entrenched at the front.
You can comfortably raise a full Corp of siege infantry or suchlike behind the lines here and then next turn use them.
I'd advise keeping you OHQs off the front line. One does not send the general over the top.
I get the feeling you don't really understand the model design stuff? Cos a very large portion of your army is really, really bad designs. The Guard probably should've been retired immediately when you saw it had a Base Design value of 78; the range is 70-130 so these guys are barely useful as police, let alone front line troopers. The enemy's soft ATT value is higher than your soft DEF - and ATT has a 50% penalty.
RE: Midgame Major Power Rush - Advice Please
I'm going to change the entire game for you right now... you can totally choose your research targets! Just call your director of the military council and choose research!
Naselus is right too, your model design could use some serious improvements. At the moment I would massively increase spending on military research and model design. Really forget about all the rest for now.
Just look at your artillery for example. You're using 180mm guns, despite 300mm being ready to be used right now by your model design council. That would be an absurd improvement right there.
Naselus is right too, your model design could use some serious improvements. At the moment I would massively increase spending on military research and model design. Really forget about all the rest for now.
Just look at your artillery for example. You're using 180mm guns, despite 300mm being ready to be used right now by your model design council. That would be an absurd improvement right there.
"Pull and obtain wisdom. Push and invite ruin." ― Cult of LIS
RE: Midgame Major Power Rush - Advice Please
Isn't that just from only 2 or 3 limited options? Or the full list of available ones?
Well I'm superset for the next playthrough now! [:)]
I saw on another thread about reaching effectively unlimited resource (The combat questions thread) If that is possible then I suppose that would also explain the ability of the AI to field such huge armies.
Well I'm superset for the next playthrough now! [:)]
I saw on another thread about reaching effectively unlimited resource (The combat questions thread) If that is possible then I suppose that would also explain the ability of the AI to field such huge armies.
RE: Midgame Major Power Rush - Advice Please
Model design - yes I am playing catch up reading about the rolls on model design. I wasn't aware of how a big deal it was. Lol I feel like such a casual now.
Gas Powered I just assumed new tech was better tech but I will pay close attention to the numbers.
On the arty I actually downgraded the calibre in the hope of finding a resource cheaper yet still effective solution.
Thanks so much for explaining things. Truly appreciated. [&o]
I feel like I have alot to put into practice now. It's been easy to get carried away and push on with the turns but I need to slow down and pay closer attention.
Gas Powered I just assumed new tech was better tech but I will pay close attention to the numbers.
On the arty I actually downgraded the calibre in the hope of finding a resource cheaper yet still effective solution.
Thanks so much for explaining things. Truly appreciated. [&o]
I feel like I have alot to put into practice now. It's been easy to get carried away and push on with the turns but I need to slow down and pay closer attention.
RE: Midgame Major Power Rush - Advice Please
Seriously, reload about 6 turns back.
Deploy all those colonists and turn off any colonist recruitment.
Then upgrade everyone to grunt 2's and when that's done, set the entire Guards line to obsolete - they're simply too terrible. No good is going to come from continuing to develop them.
The 'field testing' stat is misleading - 60% is a perfectly good time to start deving up the new variant. For example, your Abram light tank is 67% tested, but is already at 115 points of field test. A new version at this point will already be much better, where as waiting to improve at this time will take a long time to get each new %. Generally, 50% field testing is a perfectly good time to do a new version.
As top unlimited resource - yes and no. You can have unlimited time, but not unlimited capacity - most of the 'endless' resources are city-only. Your zone management is not bad (Trofaria could do with splitting into 2 but otherwise good) and should be able to hit city*250 metal and fuel production easily, but beyond that will need external sources.
I don't think you necessarily need a new playthrough - drop back ten turns, dump the awful gas Guards for Grunts and then hunker down, and this will probably be well placed to hold the line. Read up on unit design a bit (it's insanely complex, but basically you want base, structure, engine, weapon and armour design >100 for a model you want to dev up) and you should be able to hold this. The enemey army is not hugely bigger then yours and you can probably outmatch them defensively with good pop use.
Deploy all those colonists and turn off any colonist recruitment.
Then upgrade everyone to grunt 2's and when that's done, set the entire Guards line to obsolete - they're simply too terrible. No good is going to come from continuing to develop them.
The 'field testing' stat is misleading - 60% is a perfectly good time to start deving up the new variant. For example, your Abram light tank is 67% tested, but is already at 115 points of field test. A new version at this point will already be much better, where as waiting to improve at this time will take a long time to get each new %. Generally, 50% field testing is a perfectly good time to do a new version.
As top unlimited resource - yes and no. You can have unlimited time, but not unlimited capacity - most of the 'endless' resources are city-only. Your zone management is not bad (Trofaria could do with splitting into 2 but otherwise good) and should be able to hit city*250 metal and fuel production easily, but beyond that will need external sources.
I don't think you necessarily need a new playthrough - drop back ten turns, dump the awful gas Guards for Grunts and then hunker down, and this will probably be well placed to hold the line. Read up on unit design a bit (it's insanely complex, but basically you want base, structure, engine, weapon and armour design >100 for a model you want to dev up) and you should be able to hold this. The enemey army is not hugely bigger then yours and you can probably outmatch them defensively with good pop use.
RE: Midgame Major Power Rush - Advice Please
Full list indeed!
Especially with artillery going with the highest available gun is even more important than in general, because it gives the artillery more attacks per combat round. For example in that game of yours, the AI's artillery fires 6! times per round, while yours only fires 2 times.
Just keep military research and model design a higher priority in the future and you should see a lot of improvement. You should still be able to turn the tide on this planet, get some strong tanks with polymer armor, combine that with some powerful artillery and use those countless stratagems of yours. You have so many of them it's quite crazy. A lot of those BPs could have gone into your military might directly. [;)]
Of course, you could also go with another planet, you should do quite well there when keeping all the new knowledge in mind.
Especially with artillery going with the highest available gun is even more important than in general, because it gives the artillery more attacks per combat round. For example in that game of yours, the AI's artillery fires 6! times per round, while yours only fires 2 times.
Just keep military research and model design a higher priority in the future and you should see a lot of improvement. You should still be able to turn the tide on this planet, get some strong tanks with polymer armor, combine that with some powerful artillery and use those countless stratagems of yours. You have so many of them it's quite crazy. A lot of those BPs could have gone into your military might directly. [;)]
Of course, you could also go with another planet, you should do quite well there when keeping all the new knowledge in mind.
"Pull and obtain wisdom. Push and invite ruin." ― Cult of LIS
RE: Midgame Major Power Rush - Advice Please
Yeah I might do that. I have all the turns back to the start. My other issue was I didn't get any kind of power generation until amost Turn 80. I didn't know at the time about how to ensure you complete the first basic tech tree before it cascades so I missed the boat and I got solar only as the war started. How things could have been if those 80 turns had some kind of energy generation.
For sure it doesn't excuse my deficencies in model design and but does explain how this playthrough staggered along from the start.
I think I will put my new found knowledge to use in a new game but will keep this and maybe come back to it when more confident. Those gaps were great defensively though, with the right troops...
Thank you guys so much!
For sure it doesn't excuse my deficencies in model design and but does explain how this playthrough staggered along from the start.
I think I will put my new found knowledge to use in a new game but will keep this and maybe come back to it when more confident. Those gaps were great defensively though, with the right troops...
Thank you guys so much!
RE: Midgame Major Power Rush - Advice Please
No worries, I think we all went through about 7 occasions of 'oh shit, I totally misunderstood THIS for those first 70 turns' moments...
For me, most recently it was zones, at about turn 100 I had 3 zones and found all of them at -60% production from admin strain. I was spending a fortune on buying up metal/fuel... I now have 13 and have ridiculous surpluses on everything without buying a single extra asset. But I had similar Damascus moments with logistics, models and even character relations...
You were very unlucky here tho, a lot of those model roles are seriously sub-par.
For me, most recently it was zones, at about turn 100 I had 3 zones and found all of them at -60% production from admin strain. I was spending a fortune on buying up metal/fuel... I now have 13 and have ridiculous surpluses on everything without buying a single extra asset. But I had similar Damascus moments with logistics, models and even character relations...
You were very unlucky here tho, a lot of those model roles are seriously sub-par.
RE: Midgame Major Power Rush - Advice Please
This game has quite a bit of complexity, so it's really a process to understand the main parts and there's always areas one can learn more about. Anyway, it was actually quite interesting to check out your planet and good luck on your next endeavor!
"Pull and obtain wisdom. Push and invite ruin." ― Cult of LIS
RE: Midgame Major Power Rush - Advice Please
With the power only just coming on it was full on panic mode to plug the gaps and bring the zones out of the stone age before they poured through.
I know what you mean though it seems every playthrough yields much more practical knowledge to deploy. Another great aspect of this game really.
I know what you mean though it seems every playthrough yields much more practical knowledge to deploy. Another great aspect of this game really.
RE: Midgame Major Power Rush - Advice Please
Honestly, I'm super confident this is salvageable. Your fundamentals are really strong here - good industrial base, good raw material income, good cash flow etc. The infantry you're using are extremely poor, but replaced with grunts that 12k vs 500 will flip easily to even deaths, and with 20-30 turns of field testing you'll have the advantage.
The game is like basically all the Paradox major IPs rolled into one, and you can't ignore ANY of them. You've under-rated the Hearts of Iron bit and now you're getting punished
I ignored the character relations part first time and my whole empire got nicked by disgruntled council directors...
The game is like basically all the Paradox major IPs rolled into one, and you can't ignore ANY of them. You've under-rated the Hearts of Iron bit and now you're getting punished
I ignored the character relations part first time and my whole empire got nicked by disgruntled council directors...
RE: Midgame Major Power Rush - Advice Please
ORIGINAL: Naselus
The game is like basically all the Paradox major IPs rolled into one, and you can't ignore ANY of them. You've under-rated the Hearts of Iron bit and now you're getting punished
Matrix/Slitherine should use this quote as a selling point. [:D]
RE: Midgame Major Power Rush - Advice Please
It IS tho Victoria 2's world market stuff is going on behind the scenes and the game barely bothers to mention it
Victoria 2's world market stuff is going on behind the scenes and the game barely bothers to mention it RE: Midgame Major Power Rush - Advice Please
ORIGINAL: Naselus
I get the feeling you don't really understand the model design stuff? Cos a very large portion of your army is really, really bad designs. The Guard probably should've been retired immediately when you saw it had a Base Design value of 78; the range is 70-130 so these guys are barely useful as police, let alone front line troopers.
Where are you seeing the 78? I'm looking at his Guards model and it's base design is 90 (and 139 for Guards 3).
Regardless, a low base design value isn't the end of the world. It can be maxed out through field testing and iterating on the design. A low Structural design though is bad, since it never changes. Since he's only got 99 and 104 for his two infantry lines, I'd be rerolling a new one as time permits and field testing it if it rolls higher SD.