I just don't get it (maybe it's a female limitation)

[RangerJoe]

The Franco-Prussian war was France against Prussia and Prussia's allies. Prussia became part of Germany but it is not all of Germany.

[Lobster]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

The Franco-Prussian war was France against Prussia and Prussia's allies. Prussia became part of Germany but it is not all of Germany.

Mere semantics. Prussia became Germany.

Wiki:
Following the fall of Napoleon, the Congress of Vienna founded the German Confederation, a loose league of 39 sovereign states. The appointment of the Emperor of Austria as the permanent president reflected the Congress's rejection of Prussia's rising influence. Disagreement within restoration politics partly led to the rise of liberal movements, followed by new measures of repression by Austrian statesman Metternich.[42][43] The Zollverein, a tariff union, furthered economic unity.[44] In light of revolutionary movements in Europe, intellectuals and commoners started the Revolutions of 1848 in the German states. King Frederick William IV of Prussia was offered the title of Emperor, but with a loss of power; he rejected the crown and the proposed constitution, a temporary setback for the movement.

King William I appointed Otto von Bismarck as the Minister President of Prussia in 1862. Bismarck successfully concluded war on Denmark; the subsequent decisive Prussian victory in the Austro-Prussian War of 1866 enabled him to create the North German Confederation which excluded Austria. After the French defeat in the Franco-Prussian War, the German princes proclaimed the founding of the German Empire in 1871. Prussia was the dominant constituent state of the new empire; the King of Prussia ruled as its Kaiser, and Berlin became its capital.

The Franco-Prussian War or Franco-German War,[a] often referred to in France as the War of 1870, was a conflict between the Second French Empire (and later, the Third French Republic) and the German states of the North German Confederation led by the Kingdom of Prussia

Kingdom of Prussia 1870

[RangerJoe]

Prussia did not become Germany. It became part of Germany.

Using your logic, the South won the US Civil War since the South is part of the USA which won the war.

So soldiers of the Confederacy are considered US veterans.

[Lobster]

omg

[Kuokkanen]

Oh lulz you 2

Calm down, step away from the keyboard, and watch this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Gv0H-vPoDc

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

So why does anyone like the Confederates/Nazis?

warspite1

I agree with Halsey about the underdog thing. Personally I have no real interest in the US Civil War but if I played a game I would have no problem playing the Confederates and, like with the Nazis, I wouldn’t give the politics much, if any, thought. I do however wargame WWII and again I have absolutely no problem playing the Germans.
Depending on the game there are many reasons for wanting to play the Germans. They lost (underdog), they have some great units – especially 1939-41 – and yes, if you see past the politics, they have some very ‘cool’ units with some fantastic names. The German language is wonderful.

So why does anyone like the Nazis?

Well it’s not about ‘liking’ the Nazis. For me it’s about being interested in a) history and b) wargames. If anyone were to suggest I was a fan of the Nazis because I sometimes play the Germans in WWII games, then I would suggest the problem lies with them and not me.
Frankly though, I prefer to play the Allies, but then maybe that is because I’m British.

BTW of course Hitler cost Germany the war – without Hitler there is every chance there wouldn’t have been one! But Hitler and his revolting Nazis are not at the forefront of thinking when setting out on any new game.

[RangerJoe]

Hitler cost Germany the war. But early on, his gambles worked.

The questions are:

If the Winter War did not occur, would the deficiencies of the Soviet military been known?

If not, would Stalin made the necessary changes in time if the Germans would have attacked anyway?

If Germany did not attack the Soviet Union, would the Soviets have attacked Germany later in the summer? It did appear that the Soviets were in forward positions and not in defensive positions, also there is some speculation that the Soviets were getting ready to attack.

Also:

If the Luftwaffe would have released excess personel to the Armee instead of making Luftwaffe field divisions, would that have materially helped the Armee?

If Nazi Germany would have concentrated on making just a few necessary types of motor transport and combat vehicles, would that have significantly helped the Armee?

[MrsWargamer]

Last two posts, very well stated.

[AndySfromVA]

I like playing the offense and Germany and the confederates were the aggressors in many of the famous battles and campaigns.

[Gilmer]

But you said you wanted to play Rommel or Patton. One of those guys was on the losing side. So, you see? You can like the losing side in an objective way.

I think the South is obsessed with the Civil War because they could have won. Oh yeah, I know, the industrial might of the North. Bigger underdogs have won. And the South did have some pretty decent generals in the beginning.

I always play the Allied or the North or the Soviet Union on the Eastern Front. So, I'm not obsessed. But, then again, I had no family fight in the Civil War, so I can pick which side I want.

As for the Tiger tank. I'm not sure why or how, but I had always heard Germany had the best tanks. It was only when I got older that I learned that the Soviet tanks held their own against them. And this might be that mostly in the U.S. movies and such are about the Western part of the war.

[Lobster]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Prussia did not become Germany. It became part of Germany.

Using your logic, the South won the US Civil War since the South is part of the USA which won the war.

So soldiers of the Confederacy are considered US veterans.

The North German Confederation won the war, not Prussia, (also called the French-German War by the French Guerre franco-allemande de 1870 or the German-French war by the Germans Deutsch-Französischer Krieg) and became the German Empire. Wilhelm, the leader of Prussia, became the leader of the German Empire. He had refused once before. So to make it clear, the North German Confederation won the war, not Prussia.

Exactly how does that compare to the Confederate States of America and Jefferson Davis? I'd really like to see that explained.

At the very least you should probably read up on the French-German War of 1870 and the history leading up to it. [;)]

[RangerJoe]

Napolean III wanted to have a larger and a conscripted army but the Generals did not want it as the conscripts were amateurs and were thus not good soldiers. Napoleon III also wanted something like a General Staff but that did not happen either. Napoleon III was ill and lead his army which was trapped at Sedan. The French saw that there was no way to win and surrendered. Is that enough? Just just off the top of my head is what I wrote.

[Curtis Lemay]

The defenders of the Alamo were losers, as were the 300 at Thermopylae.

[sPzAbt653]

I don't desire this to be political.

I don't think it is political. It's not about National Socialism [a political party] or the Confederacy's Political position on slavery. Both of these had inhumane ideologies.

The men and women of the German and Confederate Military didn't fight to eliminate the Jewish Population or to protect their slave assets. Some would have had misguided beliefs in their party of choice, but not all military personel did. Likewise, none of us play a wargame to accomplish either of those goals. Personally I play both sides in games. They are games, not politics.

As a parallel example, the Democrats and Conservatives did not win WWII.

[Lobster]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Napolean III wanted to have a larger and a conscripted army but the Generals did not want it as the conscripts were amateurs and were thus not good soldiers. Napoleon III also wanted something like a General Staff but that did not happen either. Napoleon III was ill and lead his army which was trapped at Sedan. The French saw that there was no way to win and surrendered. Is that enough? Just just off the top of my head is what I wrote.

Huh. And here I thought we were talking about the Germans. [&:]

You win. [;)]

[Rebel Yell]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

The defenders of the Alamo were losers, as were the 300 at Thermopylae.

/thread

[Ridcully70]

The losers always seemed to have the cooler uniforms, maybe that's why.

[Rodwonder]

Since when did George Washington become a loser... [&:] [X(]

[Gilmer]

ORIGINAL: Rodwonder

Since when did George Washington become a loser... [&:] [X(]

Maybe they're thinking about right up until Late Fall/Winter of 77/78 when he started pulling rabbits out of a hat. I dunno.

[z1812]

As many have stated, and I agree, attractive uniforms, more "dash", and where the Germans are concerned, lots of interesting vehicles and uniforms, make some nations more fun to play.

The passage of time generally removes the unpleasant residual of any millitary/national extremes that include genocide, slavery and other awful repercussions. When I play Field of Glory 2, I don't consider the horrible nature of ancient warfare. I am more concerned about moving my cavalry to a good flanking position.

Take Napoleon. Many now may see him as a glorius hero. But he was viewed as a viscious dictator by other European countries at the time. Never the less I do like playing the French in Napoleonic battles.

Nearly all wargames focus on tactics and strategy. Not social or cultural issues. My greatest enjoyment lies in the organizational aspects of wargaming.