Revenge of the Enterprise

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: DanielAClark

I too am surprised that he has gone all the way out to Fiji.

What is the long term benefit of such a move?

Is it really that beneficial to be able to hit convoys out that far...at the cost of having to supply your own forces that far?

Usually when the IJ players reach out that far they are trying to harvest all the high-multiplier victory points that are scattered over the map. The aim is to get auto-victory on points even if it means the usual expansion remains unfinished. He is likely to get Singapore by the end of the year but you might get time and troops to reinforce Noumea and retake Fiji. Not a great plan for the IJ.

[DesertWolf101]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

You have already done very well on land, sea and air compared with the usual drubbing the Allies take. Part of it seems to be your opponents shotgun expansion, hitting a lot of places but not concentrating his forces enough to finish off yours. He rectified his mistake in Luzon at the cost of leaving Singapore in your hands.

Priorities! I don't know why any IJ player would assault Suva and Nadi before securing Wake and New Caledonia.
Anyway, it is heartening to see how much can be achieved on the Allied side by exploiting IJ mistakes and opening in their conquered areas.

Thanks and I agree completely - my opponent could have done a lot more damage had he focused some of his efforts a bit more.

[DesertWolf101]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: DanielAClark

I too am surprised that he has gone all the way out to Fiji.

What is the long term benefit of such a move?

Is it really that beneficial to be able to hit convoys out that far...at the cost of having to supply your own forces that far?

Usually when the IJ players reach out that far they are trying to harvest all the high-multiplier victory points that are scattered over the map. The aim is to get auto-victory on points even if it means the usual expansion remains unfinished. He is likely to get Singapore by the end of the year but you might get time and troops to reinforce Noumea and retake Fiji. Not a great plan for the IJ.

Besides the VP points, I do actually see some value in the Japanese taking New Caledonia and Fiji, at least for a while. It is a good way to help isolate Australia and lengthen the Allied supply lines. The Japanese were considering these moves when their defeat at Midway shelved all of these plans. The problem here I think was that my opponent came in without adequate preparation - most notably he did not take at least some of the surrounding islands to enhance his logistics and search capabilities of the area.

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101


Besides the VP points, I do actually see some value in the Japanese taking New Caledonia and Fiji, at least for a while. It is a good way to help isolate Australia and lengthen the Allied supply lines. The Japanese were considering these moves when their defeat at Midway shelved all of these plans. The problem here I think was that my opponent came in without adequate preparation - most notably he did not take at least some of the surrounding islands to enhance his logistics and search capabilities of the area.

It is a very common fallacy of Japanese players to think they can isolate Australia. It cannot be done.

A serious attempt to seal off Australia requires:

(a) the complete conquest of the Solomons, the Hebrides, New Caledonia, the islands between New Caledonia and New Zealand (such as Raoul), and New Zealand itself to provide the land airfields and ports to base the requisite air and naval assets to intercept all eastern sea approaches to Australia, and

(b) permanently park the KB in continuous sea patrols (with the attendant fuel consumpti8on involved) over the West Australian ports which cannot be reached by air from Timor, and some surface naval and air assets in Timor and Ambon to intercept the sea approaches to the Top End and the Kimberleys

Japan just doesn't have the military assets to accomplish this. It's first priority is to secure the raw materials of the SRA. Once acquired these need to be protected. Until this is achieved the mobile components of the Empire will not be available to methodically pursue the operations to isolate Australia. By the time that starts to become possible, the Allied capability to seriously resist is improved considerably.

The cost in terms of fixed assets and consumables to isolate Australia is so high and impracticable, it actually makes much more sense to instead land in Australia and attempt to conquer it in a land campaign. Doing so has the huge benefit of limiting the use of the KB and fuel consumption to the initial lodgement. There is important industry (and even better VP gain potential) in Australia therefore the ROI of conquering Australia is far better than any attempt to isolate Australia.

Alfred

[DesertWolf101]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101


Besides the VP points, I do actually see some value in the Japanese taking New Caledonia and Fiji, at least for a while. It is a good way to help isolate Australia and lengthen the Allied supply lines. The Japanese were considering these moves when their defeat at Midway shelved all of these plans. The problem here I think was that my opponent came in without adequate preparation - most notably he did not take at least some of the surrounding islands to enhance his logistics and search capabilities of the area.

It is a very common fallacy of Japanese players to think they can isolate Australia. It cannot be done.

A serious attempt to seal off Australia requires:

(a) the complete conquest of the Solomons, the Hebrides, New Caledonia, the islands between New Caledonia and New Zealand (such as Raoul), and New Zealand itself to provide the land airfields and ports to base the requisite air and naval assets to intercept all eastern sea approaches to Australia, and

(b) permanently park the KB in continuous sea patrols (with the attendant fuel consumpti8on involved) over the West Australian ports which cannot be reached by air from Timor, and some surface naval and air assets in Timor and Ambon to intercept the sea approaches to the Top End and the Kimberleys

Japan just doesn't have the military assets to accomplish this. It's first priority is to secure the raw materials of the SRA. Once acquired these need to be protected. Until this is achieved the mobile components of the Empire will not be available to methodically pursue the operations to isolate Australia. By the time that starts to become possible, the Allied capability to seriously resist is improved considerably.

The cost in terms of fixed assets and consumables to isolate Australia is so high and impracticable, it actually makes much more sense to instead land in Australia and attempt to conquer it in a land campaign. Doing so has the huge benefit of limiting the use of the KB and fuel consumption to the initial lodgement. There is important industry (and even better VP gain potential) in Australia therefore the ROI of conquering Australia is far better than any attempt to isolate Australia.

Alfred

Completely isolating Australia I agree would be next to impossible to achieve. As you note, it would require the invasion of New Zealand for one thing which I would think is highly inadvisable. I also completely agree that any such attempt should not take away from the conquest of the SRA which should be the absolute priority for Japan. Finally, I also concur with your point that such a mission should be done with care to not end up costing the Empire more resources than it is worth. If however all these considerations are taken into serious account, I still believe that helping to isolate Australia (not completely mind you) by taking New Caledonia and Fiji can be beneficial as it significantly elongates the Allied supply lines to Australia and provides forward bases for submarines to more effectively operate agains those supply lines. This was certainly something that affected my operations when I had to reroute convoys to the bottom of the map to avoid the threat from Fiji.

The other point on invading Australia I am not well equipped in terms of game knowledge nor experience to respond to. I am a bit surprised it is even possible for Japan to take Australia in the game - certainly that was far fetched historically even as some planning was undertaken with that regard. If you say it is possible and even potentially advisable Alfred in the game then that is certainly something I will keep in mind.

[Alfred]

Complete conquest of Australia is very difficult.  It requires considerable assistance from your opponent.  Your current Japanese opponent, were he to play the Allied side might however provide the necessary accommodation.
 
Fortunately for Japan, the complete capture of Australia is not necessary.  The heart of Australia lies in Sydney (with associated Newcastle and Wollongong) and Melbourne.  Capturing that terrain (and the necessary supporting bases) is a much greater blow to the Allied war effort than is capturing the Calcutta triangle in India.  Even the Karachi-Bombay triangle is not equivalent to Sydney-Melbourne.  This is why a Japanese player going for India really needs to capture all of India in order to make it a serious blow whereas Australia need not be fully captured.
 
The secret to the differences between India and Australia lie in the different industrial structures.  India (with the exception of Colombo) lacks major shipyards.  India has no aircraft factories.  All this amounts to no major ship arrivals in India and the Indian and British air force will continue to receive airframe replacements.  Damaged ships in Indian waters can go off map to get repaired.
 
This is not the case regarding Sydney/Melbourne.  The RAAF is dependent on on-map aircraft factories, not just off-map production.  Lose the aircraft factories and eventually the RAAF will cease to exist.  The RAN gets both combat and sea lift ships in its Australian ports.  Sydney is the best Allied shipyard between Colombo and Pearl Harbor and can repair almost everything.  Lose the Australian repair yards and damaged ships in Australian waters have a long, long dangerous journey to get to a suitable facility.
 
My point is not that this should be Japan's focus, because accomplishing it isn't easy, but that when choosing between complete isolation and conquest where the same effort is required for either, the conquest provides a far better ROI in both the initial operational and subsequent garrisoning stages.  Extending Japanese control to New Caledonia in order to both lengthen the Allied SLOC and to trade space for time in any subsequent Allied Solomon campaign, is sensible if using local Japanese assets.  Using the KB (and fuel consumption) to support capture of Fiji and lands further east and retain them, is not what I term using local assets (and local raw materials).
 
Alfred

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Complete conquest of Australia is very difficult.  It requires considerable assistance from your opponent.  Your current Japanese opponent, were he to play the Allied side might however provide the necessary accommodation.

Fortunately for Japan, the complete capture of Australia is not necessary.  The heart of Australia lies in Sydney (with associated Newcastle and Wollongong) and Melbourne.  Capturing that terrain (and the necessary supporting bases) is a much greater blow to the Allied war effort than is capturing the Calcutta triangle in India.  Even the Karachi-Bombay triangle is not equivalent to Sydney-Melbourne.  This is why a Japanese player going for India really needs to capture all of India in order to make it a serious blow whereas Australia need not be fully captured.

The secret to the differences between India and Australia lie in the different industrial structures.  India (with the exception of Colombo) lacks major shipyards.  India has no aircraft factories.  All this amounts to no major ship arrivals in India and the Indian and British air force will continue to receive airframe replacements.  Damaged ships in Indian waters can go off map to get repaired.

This is not the case regarding Sydney/Melbourne.  The RAAF is dependent on on-map aircraft factories, not just off-map production.  Lose the aircraft factories and eventually the RAAF will cease to exist.  The RAN gets both combat and sea lift ships in its Australian ports.  Sydney is the best Allied shipyard between Colombo and Pearl Harbor and can repair almost everything.  Lose the Australian repair yards and damaged ships in Australian waters have a long, long dangerous journey to get to a suitable facility.

My point is not that this should be Japan's focus, because accomplishing it isn't easy, but that when choosing between complete isolation and conquest where the same effort is required for either, the conquest provides a far better ROI in both the initial operational and subsequent garrisoning stages.  Extending Japanese control to New Caledonia in order to both lengthen the Allied SLOC and to trade space for time in any subsequent Allied Solomon campaign, is sensible if using local Japanese assets.  Using the KB (and fuel consumption) to support capture of Fiji and lands further east and retain them, is not what I term using local assets (and local raw materials).

Alfred

When the game was young and players were just learning what strategies could work, Castor Troy and a few other players did conquer Australia in PBEM - playing against rookie players. More experienced players recognize the danger sooner and put reinforcements in Australia early in the game. Fighter aircraft are the first requirement. Tanks and motorized infantry (for mobility) are the second. Patrol aircraft and anti-ship bombers are needed too. Most of all, fuel and supply are the thing that make everything else work.

[DesertWolf101]

March 13-14, 1942

Submarines

Dutch sub KXVII attempts to sink the large AP Hikawa Maru in the South China Sea but misses with two torps.

S/SW Pacific

B-17E bombers start pounding Suva from New Caledonia in an attempt to deny the airfield’s use to my opponent.

Central Pacific

Another Japanese attack on Wake fails, this time with 1 to 2 odds in my favor. I pull back the Yorktown task force however as I have lost sight of the KB and don’t want to risk the carrier.

Malaya

More Vildebeest strikes, this time with Hurricane escort, go in against the Japanese convoys landing reinforcements at Mersing. A heavy Oscar CAP is encountered over the ships and only one AK is damaged with 2 bomb hits.

China

I bring in a couple of Blenheim IV bomber squadrons into China for additional firepower.

A Japanese unit crosses the river into Chengchow from Kaifeng, opening an escape route for the trapped Japanese Army. Nevertheless, a Chinese assault sends the Japanese reeling back across the river with heavy casualties, including 100 combat squads, 300 non combat squads, and 35 guns destroyed for only 3 Chinese squads destroyed.

To the west of Chengchow, an attempted retreat by the 37th and 41st Japanese divisions is thwarted with a Chinese assault. The Japanese divisions are dealt heavy casualties with hundreds of squads destroyed, and the Chinese units pursue into the hills above Nanyang in an effort to surround them.

-----

My top ace, Hodges with 13 kills, has been eclipsed by two of his Flying Tiger squadron mates, each now with 14 kills, after a ferocious battle with Japanese Zeros over China.

[DesertWolf101]

March 15-17, 1942

S/SW Pacific

A Japanese raid of about 50 Nettie bombers and 25 Zeros from Rabaul targets Port Moresby but is torn to shreds by the heavy CAP and dense AA fire. The butchers bill for the raid is 34 Nell bombers, 8 Betty bombers, and 15 Zero fighters. I lose 2 P-40E Warhawks in the sky and a P-39D on the ground.

In addition to the B-17E strikes from New Caledonia, I send in the Prince of Wales and the Repulse and three light cruisers to bombard Suva and keep the airfield there offline. The shelling was a success, but the I-10 launched 6 torpedoes at the Repulse on the return trip and struck with one. The Repulse makes it back to Sydney, but is out of service for the foreseeable future.

Central Pacific

Six Japanese battleships shell the Wake Island troops, inflicting major damage and disruption. A Japanese shock attack then finally overwhelms the defenders.

Burma

Half a dozen AKs and AKLs are intercepted by two Japanese destroyers and sunk. I need to figure out a way to deal with this threat once and for all.

China

On March 17, about a hundred Zero and Oscar fighters sweep the key allied airbases in China but my fighters are on their day off. My opponent is doubling his efforts to regain air superiority over the theater.

------

Part of the reason for the partial wind down in Allied air ops over China is because I sent one of the elite Flying Tiger squadrons back to Calcutta to reequip with P-40E Warhawks.

[DesertWolf101]

March 18-19, 1942

Submarines

SS KXVIII sinks a fat AK near Patani.

S/SW Pacific

An allied cruiser task force keeps up the pressure on the Japanese in Fiji with a bombardment of Suva.

Timor

The Japanese land at Lautem and capture it.

China

A full-scale Japanese bomber offensive supported by at least 200 Zeros and Oscars starts wrecking my forward fighter airfields in China. I suffer no losses as I pulled back my fighter squadrons into the interior and wait for a moment to strike back.

-------

I noted that I was alarmed by the sudden arrival of masses of Japanese fighters in China. This astonished me as I had shot down so many fighters, I was surprised my opponent still had so many. I will post a screenshot of the air losses.

[DesertWolf101]

Aircraft Losses

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101

Aircraft Losses

You are doing very well in the air war, with some help from your opponent. The very high ops losses he has experienced indicate he is using the aircraft at long range and/or is ignoring airframe and pilot fatigue.

[DesertWolf101]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101

Aircraft Losses

You are doing very well in the air war, with some help from your opponent. The very high ops losses he has experienced indicate he is using the aircraft at long range and/or is ignoring airframe and pilot fatigue.

Thank you. If I am not mistaken, I think my opponent was also overproducing aircraft no? It's only March 1942 and he must have significantly expanded his Zero and Betty/Nell lines.

[Bif1961]

It may not be over production if he is using them more than any other aircraft because of their range and capabilities. Over production would be you make 500 Sonia's.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: Bif1961

It may not be over production if he is using them more than any other aircraft because of their range and capabilities. Over production would be you make 500 Sonia's.

+1

It is late March, and he should be fielding the A6M3 or 3a now. And he has under used the Oscar Ic by far causing him to really over work the the Zero as evidenced by the high op losses.

A big mistake when a JFB back loads his fighter research thinking that the early months will be a cakewalk.

[CV10]

That's a lot of planes and good pilots for him to be losing this early on. The ops losses are heavy, but you've also done pretty well in air-to-air combat. I know those numbers are subject to FOW, but your pilots are scoring good numbers of kills at a time when most allied fighter squadrons lack good planes and/or high air skill/exp pilots.

[DesertWolf101]

ORIGINAL: Bif1961

It may not be over production if he is using them more than any other aircraft because of their range and capabilities. Over production would be you make 500 Sonia's.

Building 500 Sonias is what I would call self-flagellation [:D]

[DesertWolf101]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: Bif1961

It may not be over production if he is using them more than any other aircraft because of their range and capabilities. Over production would be you make 500 Sonia's.

+1

It is late March, and he should be fielding the A6M3 or 3a now. And he has under used the Oscar Ic by far causing him to really over work the the Zero as evidenced by the high op losses.

A big mistake when a JFB back loads his fighter research thinking that the early months will be a cakewalk.

Is it really possible to get the A6M3a by March 1942? The A6M3 arrives in June 1942 and the A6M3a in December 1942. I understand you can accelerate the research quite a bit but I am surprised to hear that you can accelerate the A6M3a that early! How do you do it if I may ask?

[DesertWolf101]

ORIGINAL: CV10

That's a lot of planes and good pilots for him to be losing this early on. The ops losses are heavy, but you've also done pretty well in air-to-air combat. I know those numbers are subject to FOW, but your pilots are scoring good numbers of kills at a time when most allied fighter squadrons lack good planes and/or high air skill/exp pilots.

Thank you - I think the air war is where I was happiest with my results for sure. Granted I fully admit this was helped along by some of my opponent's mistakes.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: Bif1961

It may not be over production if he is using them more than any other aircraft because of their range and capabilities. Over production would be you make 500 Sonia's.

+1

It is late March, and he should be fielding the A6M3 or 3a now. And he has under used the Oscar Ic by far causing him to really over work the the Zero as evidenced by the high op losses.

A big mistake when a JFB back loads his fighter research thinking that the early months will be a cakewalk.

Is it really possible to get the A6M3a by March 1942? The A6M3 arrives in June 1942 and the A6M3a in December 1942. I understand you can accelerate the research quite a bit but I am surprised to hear that you can accelerate the A6M3a that early! How do you do it if I may ask?

The 3a is a bridge too far for the end of March, but the 3 is doable but it takes a lot of focus. So one route would be get the A6M3 factories to repair to 30, and once there advance it to 3a and work hard from day 1 to get to the Ha35 engine bonus. Once you get the 3a, advance all factories to the A6M8 to get that plane in 1943 (different engine thou). You live with the 3a thru all of 1942.

Or get advance the 3 and then move to 3a.

The 3a is a great plane with range and maneuver and compares fairly favorable to the 5.

Most JFBs don't go this route and instead go rufe to A6M5 for the speed advantage that the 5 has over the 3a. Plus allocating a lot of r&d to the zero line isn't something most JFBs like to do.