How do you read the bottlenecks overlay?

[jpwrunyan]

ORIGINAL: btonasse

ORIGINAL: jpwrunyan

It's due to the fact that logistics is *weird* in this game. At the start of the turn, you have LP saturated in each hex along the road. And of course, your perfectly logical grounded-in-reality brain thinks "Oh, I used up all my LP capacity in hex 0,1; so surely there's no more trucks to go down the road". Untrue. If hex 0,1 has 200 LP and hex 1,1 has 200 LP and a combined force of units drains all the LP from hex 0,1 that has *no* impact on the amount of LP that was assigned to 1,1 and so forth down the road. So hex 0,1 is black and hex 1,1 can be a happy green if no one is using it get pull LP off-road to units on the map. I hope that helps.

For a simple example of this happening, send one of your units off-road down your logistics network. You'll probably see on your remaining LP overlay something like 200, 200, 190, 200, 200... along your road. 10 points pull off for your unit from the *one* hex, but all the others still have their capacity. If it worked like a flow of trucks delivering goods in an intuitive way, your brain would expect (perhaps) to see 200, 200, 190, 190, 190.... But your brain would be wrong in the abstract math-land of Shadow Empire logistics.

The bottlenecks overlay converts the used pts with initial pts to create a percentage use value. So the above (correct) example would be 100%, 100%, 95%, 100%, 100%.

By the way, I think there's a good reason for why the logistics system is implemented in this counter-intuitive way. It would be much more difficult to implement logistics in the way I feel is intuitive (I have 400 trucks in my empire to send out and when some of them are used in hex 0, 1, they no longer become available from hex 1, 1 and beyond). The path finding of units to account for truck pick-up locations as trucks get pulled off in such a way is much more complicated than the simpler system used where each hex just "has trucks" independent of the adjacent hexes. Hope that makes sense.

I'm sorry, but this makes no sense. Unless I'm really misunderstanding the system it's not at all how it works.

If I have 1000 LPs and one 4-hex road, each hex will display 1000 points. If your explanation was true this would mean that I actually have 4000 LPs, and not a 1000. And this is obviously not the case.

You are correctly reading my message. And you have precisely identified what makes the logistics system counter-intuitive IMO.

But truly, a 1000LP / 50AP logistics center means it's going to put 1000 points into each hex up to 50 AP away, assuming a single road from the origin. In case of two roads, it will send 500 points in each hex up to 50 AP away on each road. So on and so forth.

Past 50 AP, it pushes 80%, 60%, 40%, 20% to each hex after that (assuming a dirt road with 10 AP per hex cost).

The formula, as I infer it, for AP range penalty is: (AP spent - 50) * .02 (with 0 being the minimum penalty). So 60/50 AP hex gets 10 * .02 = .2 penalty. AKA 20% penalty. At 100/50 AP and beyond you get 100% penalty and your logistics extent runs out.

PS I would be happy to be proven wrong on this, but after hours of staring at the logistics overlay and consulting the manual, I'm confident this is how the logistics points works.

[GodwinW]

ORIGINAL: WCG

That's what I don't understand, either. I've got one truck station. How can I have a black bottleneck close to that truck station, but not when I get further away from it?

Because it's a bottleneck, not a plug.

See Logistics Points as water. And roads as pipes. And the pipes can only ever decrease in size, never increase (unless with building Truck Stations or upgrading them). They can also stay the same size for quite some hexes distance.

Bottlenecks are places where the pipe is too small for the amount of water (Logistics) that should ideally flow through it.
But after the water has forced as much as it can (100%) through that part of the pipe, and whatever wanted it has gotten what it got from it, the rest continues on its way and may be used a bit, a little or a lot later down the flow.


Edit: I'm seeing new posts pop up as I was typing. Does my metaphor make it easier?

I hope so because to me this makes it easy to intuitively understand. I'm very willing to elaborate.

[jpwrunyan]

The problem with the logistics system is that there really is no real-world analogy that fits.

"Bottlenecks are places where the pipe is too small for the amount of water (Logistics) that should ideally flow through it." To me this phrasing means exactly like a plug... which is why I feel analogies are failing us at this point.

[btonasse]

Yeah, don't understand the point of the logistics if that's really how it works. And it's definitely not what I took from the manual.

Let me see if I understand your explanation:

I have a 4-hex road starting on hex A, passing through hex B and ending in hex C.
Hex A is both the source of 1000 LPs and the seat of SHQ.
Hex B somehow uses 1000 LPs (sending or receiving stuff from SHQ, for example)
Hex C also needs 1000LPs.

According to your explanation I would have no logistic issues, since both hex B and C use 1000LPs and are in range.

And, had Hex B needed 1500 LPs, it would of course be missing 500, but that wouldn't affect Hex C at all?

This makes zero sense to me, but it's quite late, so maybe tomorrow (or some day) I will get it... :/

[zgrssd]

ORIGINAL: jpwrunyan

I am constantly having trouble with logistics, even if I have enough logistics points and resources.

The only time things display angry colors at me is when I check the bottlenecks overlay, but I cannot for the life of me figure out what it's trying to tell me.

The Bottleneck interface is trying to tell you:
There are the bottlenecks, based on last turns actuall usage.
Logistics assets have a range and a capacity. Both need to be enough.

I made a whole thing about this:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4834257

ORIGINAL: btonasse

Yeah, don't understand the point of the logistics if that's really how it works. And it's definitely not what I took from the manual.

Let me see if I understand your explanation:

I have a 4-hex road starting on hex A, passing through hex B and ending in hex C.
Hex A is both the source of 1000 LPs and the seat of SHQ.
Hex B somehow uses 1000 LPs (sending or receiving stuff from SHQ, for example)
Hex C also needs 1000LPs.

According to your explanation I would have no logistic issues, since both hex B and C use 1000LPs and are in range.

And, had Hex B needed 1500 LPs, it would of course be missing 500, but that wouldn't affect Hex C at all?

This makes zero sense to me, but it's quite late, so maybe tomorrow (or some day) I will get it... :/

All buildings and zones need to be connecte via a road (to the city or SHQ, respectively). The road splits Logistics points. 500 going towards B and C each.

Note that assets do not actually consume any Logistics. The just need enough points "passing through" their hex.

[btonasse]

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

All buildings and zones need to be connecte via a road (to the city or SHQ, respectively). The road splits Logistics points. 500 going towards B and C each.

Note that assets do not actually consume any Logistics. The just need enough points "passing through" their hex.

Maybe my example was not clear enough. How can the road split the LPs if there's no junction? I meant this: A-B-C. One same road, two hexes that need LPs.

And I'm not talking about assets either. I mean any scenario where the LPs are actually "consumed" (zone requests/deliveries or unit supply)

[zgrssd]

ORIGINAL: btonasse

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

All buildings and zones need to be connecte via a road (to the city or SHQ, respectively). The road splits Logistics points. 500 going towards B and C each.

Note that assets do not actually consume any Logistics. The just need enough points "passing through" their hex.

Maybe my example was not clear enough. How can the road split the LPs if there's no junction? I meant this: A-B-C. One same road, two hexes that need LPs.

And I'm not talking about assets either. I mean any scenario where the LPs are actually "consumed" (zone requests/deliveries or unit supply)

You mean City A->City B->City C?
The 1000 Truck Points start at City A.
Go through City B,
End at City C.

If you try to send 1000 to B and 1000 to C:
- 1000 Points are used up by A->B
- 0 Points availible for A->C
No delviery to C. Bottleneck will mark this part as black.

Solution:
Add another 1000 points going A->B or B->A at least. That way both could receive their 1000 units.

[Kamelpov]

If you talk about consumption if A B C are on the same road if b only use 500 C may use less than 500 due to distance decay else if you got a supply depot at B you may have 500 for C if it's at less than 5 hex with road.
A-B <= 5
B-C <= 5
if B use 1000 well C get nothing

[GodwinW]

ORIGINAL: jpwrunyan

The problem with the logistics system is that there really is no real-world analogy that fits.

"Bottlenecks are places where the pipe is too small for the amount of water (Logistics) that should ideally flow through it." To me this phrasing means exactly like a plug... which is why I feel analogies are failing us at this point.

No. A plug to me is a place where you stop a flow. Not where you are limited by the capacity of the pipe (literally think about a bottle: the bottleneck dictates the speed at which the fluid drains).

Maybe to make it more clear I should talk about the whole system and differentiate between LIS and trucks as well.

In this case, Logistics is the maximum water that can be in that part of the pipe (let's call it water capacity now then), the Trucks are the waterflow, what you need is an amount of flow (NOT a one-time amount of water, you need a certain flow!)

Let's try this:

3 hexes distance: A -> B -> C
1000 LIS preview on all 3 hexes.
Let's say there's a unit on hex B which needs 2000 points of transported goods.

So in our metaphor: we have a pipe through which flows water. The pipe is 3 hexes long. The pipe can have a maximum flow of 1000 at all 3 parts of it.


Display Toggle: Bottlenecks

Green -> Black -> Green
Because 100% of the waterflow is being used at hex B (by the unit). It wanted 200%, but 100% is all it got (because higher than 100% doesn't exist).

For me this is intuitive.
It's not as if using the water at B (for example by using it to cool a hot item) (recall that pipes are roads so only roads can move the water of the road.. you need to see the need of units etc. as a need for the flow, for example the need to have x water flow/second in order to cool something down) removes it from flowing further down the line. But it DOES indicate that unless you need exactly 100% that you needed more than you had at that specific part of the pipe.

LIS can never ever increase ever without another faucet (truck stop). It runs down the pipes. The weird part I guess is that the water stops (pipes start leaking after a distance I guess :p).

[btonasse]

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

You mean City A->City B->City C?
The 1000 Truck Points start at City A.
Go through City B,
End at City C.

If you try to send 1000 to B and 1000 to C:
- 1000 Points are used up by A->B
- 0 Points availible for A->C
No delviery to C. Bottleneck will mark this part as black.

Solution:
Add another 1000 points going A->B or B->A at least. That way both could receive their 1000 units.

Yes, that was exactly my interpretation of it too, but this contradicts what jpwrunyan and GodwinW are saying. And also doesn't explain why further down the line after the LPs have been used up the overlay shows points again.

So we have two groups of people saying completely different things and I don't know who is right. If only the manual actually explained things like this...

[WCG]

ORIGINAL: jpwrunyan

By the way, I think there's a good reason for why the logistics system is implemented in this counter-intuitive way. It would be much more difficult to implement logistics in the way I feel is intuitive (I have 400 trucks in my empire to send out and when some of them are used in hex 0, 1, they no longer become available from hex 1, 1 and beyond). The path finding of units to account for truck pick-up locations as trucks get pulled off in such a way is much more complicated than the simpler system used where each hex just "has trucks" independent of the adjacent hexes. Hope that makes sense.

OK. That makes sense. Thanks!

None of the analogies make sense. Sorry. Maybe that's just me, but I'm not going to worry about it. If it needs to be this way so that the game doesn't bog down, fine. It's a game, after all.

I need to ignore my confusion about how this is done - and how it's shown in that bottlenecks overlay - and just accept it. Apparently, if the bottleneck shows black, I need more truck points there. Period.

It doesn't make any difference whether the path is green later on. I mean, it doesn't matter to the fact that I need more truck points (or more railroad points, presumably) where the path is black.

So, if I just concentrate on fixing the problem there, that's all I really need, right? If I build another truck station where I'm having that problem - or upgrade one that's already there - then eventually I'll have enough logistic points at that spot to solve the bottleneck problem.

OK. I think this will work for me. It doesn't really matter if this part of the game seems weird to me, especially since I think I've got a handle on the logistics other than this particular bottleneck problem. I know how to solve the problem - or I think I do, at least [:)] - and that's all that really matters.

Thanks for the replies, everyone! I think this will help. I won't hurt my brain trying to puzzle it out. I'll just fix the problem. [:)]

[Jdane]

I'm operating under the same assumptions you are, WCG.
Some aspects of the Bottlenecks display still puzzle me, but that way of thinking about it still allows to troubleshoot and fix the issue, and then go on with one's game.

One thing I had to realize and still seems a little funny to me is that Assets only need a potential of logistics points to operate fully, and that moving resources from rural Assets to the zone's inventory, and vice versa, does not consume logistics points. Only Items moving to and from between the zone inventories and a SHQ, or from a SHQ to units deplete the logistics points allotment. At least if I understood correctly.

The pipe analogy that has been getting some use recently helped me quite a bit I must say.

[Mathieas]

Hi all,

Think of trucks like people in a bucket brigade. Each person(truck) cannot move but instead can only transfer supplies. Each truck depot is able to generate a line of bucket brigade a 1000 wide and as long(hexs) as the AP is able to hold out(then the bucket width diminishes as the AP is used). Now this analogy isn't perfect because in reality you would use some of your people(trucks) to widen the brigade when needed (instead of using them to extend it's range) but, if you prioritize in your mind a fixed 1000 person width bucket brigade it works.

So in the example here:
ORIGINAL: zgrssd

You mean City A->City B->City C?
The 1000 Truck Points start at City A.
Go through City B,
End at City C.

If you try to send 1000 to B and 1000 to C:
- 1000 Points are used up by A->B
- 0 Points available for A->C
No delivery to C. Bottleneck will mark this part as black.

Solution:
Add another 1000 points going A->B or B->A at least. That way both could receive their 1000 units.


This above I believe is 90% correct but missing one key point - where the bottleneck is first forming. You need 2000 buckets worth of materials you need to send from A to B and 1000 to continue to send through to C. So if we use the bucket brigade analogy then you have 2000 buckets needed to transfer to B, 1000 stays but you need an additional 1000 to send on to C. Now if we assume B has priority over C then you will see a bottle neck at A to B as this is where the first transfer of 2000 is requested. B to C is however NOT saturated as B to C bucket brigade is still open with 1000 buckets waiting for the materials that never made it from A. Please note, that even if you had 2000 points of buckets to transfer(At A and B) you would still see a bottleneck, because this while transferring 100% of what you need is still using 100% of the capacity which would show black (even though you have satisfied all of your needs!!).

This is just my take on what i have seen and read. I certainly could be mistaken.

[PMCN]

Ohkay, I have sorta kinda fixed some of my problems but I have a big issue with my inability to send replacements to my no longer starving infantry brigade that is poised to take the enemy city in the north.

My problem seems to be a huge bottleneck between my two other cities. My question is how do I (best) fix this problem?

What seems to be the best solution is to increase the truck and rail in Grenancon to II and build a truck I near where I foolishly built a Supply I on the northern road. But I could increase Celtris to Rail II and build a truck stop in the middle of the bottleneck. It just seems to me the Grenancon is going to be the linch pin of my supply system not my capital (which is not central). There is a sealed road between the cities and that continues for a good part of the way to the city in the north I am trying to take.

[zgrssd]

ORIGINAL: PMCN

Ohkay, I have sorta kinda fixed some of my problems but I have a big issue with my inability to send replacements to my no longer starving infantry brigade that is poised to take the enemy city in the north.

My problem seems to be a huge bottleneck between my two other cities. My question is how do I (best) fix this problem?

What seems to be the best solution is to increase the truck and rail in Grenancon to II and build a truck I near where I foolishly built a Supply I on the northern road. But I could increase Celtris to Rail II and build a truck stop in the middle of the bottleneck. It just seems to me the Grenancon is going to be the linch pin of my supply system not my capital (which is not central). There is a sealed road between the cities and that continues for a good part of the way to the city in the north I am trying to take.

I am guessing you got all the Logistics
- going to Bismark
- the Troops near Bismark
- troops near the bottleneck
Going through said bottleneck

You mentioned some rails. But not only should that rail go to Bismark (wich is actually far a way and actually needs a lot of stuff), you have shown us no indication they work.

[zgrssd]

Note taht there may be a bug with the Railhead:
It preventing anything but the lower 10% of hte Rail Points from going on. I did not came around to testing that part, but only connecting it via a T-Crossing should fix it.

But you only need like 1 look at the numbers to notice a missing 90% Rail points:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4834982

[PMCN]

Sorry the rail goes between the two cities (Celtris and Grenacon) in the south and then north only as far as the rail head. What goes towards the troops near Bismark is a sealed road from the rail head (baring a mountain pass) that extends to the end of the yellow section all the way from the SHQ in celtris. There is a truck station I in the same hex as the railhead to be clear.

I'm trying to get replacements to the troops near bismark as they starved for some turns...why I'm not 100% sure as they were in supply then they weren't but regardless what I figure is stopping the transport of replacements is that black bottleneck between them and the SHQ in Celtris. I am not sure if putting a truck station I somewhere in that bottleneck would help or if it is better to concentrate on getting the Rail and Truck in Grenacon up to level II. I will put in a truck station along the northern road. I also have troops I will move up north to reinforce the existing ones while I am dealing with logistical issue in the south.

[jpwrunyan]

ORIGINAL: GodwinW
Maybe to make it more clear I should talk about the whole system and differentiate between LIS and trucks as well.

In this case, Logistics is the maximum water that can be in that part of the pipe (let's call it water capacity now then), the Trucks are the waterflow, what you need is an amount of flow (NOT a one-time amount of water, you need a certain flow!)

Let's try this:

3 hexes distance: A -> B -> C
1000 LIS preview on all 3 hexes.
Let's say there's a unit on hex B which needs 2000 points of transported goods.

So in our metaphor: we have a pipe through which flows water. The pipe is 3 hexes long. The pipe can have a maximum flow of 1000 at all 3 parts of it.

Display Toggle: Bottlenecks

Green -> Black -> Green
Because 100% of the waterflow is being used at hex B (by the unit). It wanted 200%, but 100% is all it got (because higher than 100% doesn't exist).

For me this is intuitive.

Yes, this is a better way to explain it. I still think you should drop the "water in pipes" thing entirely though because the system really isn't like water flowing through pipes. The key issue for me being the word "flow". In the logistics system it's more like buckets of water evenly spaced along a path... and now we'll start debating our metaphors instead of explaining the actual mechanics of the system which I think is what we ought to do.

I appreciate the effort you put into clarifying though. We agree on how it works. Just not about how to analogize it, which again I don't think we should do (on page 2 of this thread).

Let's talk about hexes, points values, and how they're used. After that the reader can analogize it in their own head however they see fit.

Edit: I dunno, if the analogies help some people, great. YMMV

[WCG]

ORIGINAL: Grotius

I have much the same question as in the original post. In particular: what does it mean when there are two percentages in the same hex, one of which is parentheses and one not?

Did anyone figure this out? I still don't know what that number in parenthesis means.

In my current game, the number always seems to be 100%. I don't think I've ever seen a different number there. And it only shows up when there are military units fairly close by (so it apparently does have something to do with that).

But what does it mean, exactly?

PS. Does the bottleneck display include rail LP, and not just that from trucks? I've got a city very close to my capital city, and upgrading the rail stations in both of them hasn't seemed to make any difference to the bottleneck display. It was yellow before the rail stations were upgraded, and it's still yellow now, some turns afterwards.

Yeah, earlier I said that I'd just accept that I simply needed more LP, but no matter how much I get - rail LP, especially - it doesn't seem to make much difference. Then again, I'm probably hauling more stuff all the time, too. But that much?

[LordAldrich]

The number in parenthesis is from a nearby unit using it's built in logistics to pull supplies from the road. It the same number as you see on the dotted unit supply lines, it's just in parenthesis so you can tell it apart from the road's numbers when they're on the same hex. I *think* it's the percentage of requested supplies which were delivered, but don't quote me on it. (The road % is straightforward currentLP/startingLP)