Please Do Not Change Logistics System

[Falke]

ORIGINAL: Destragon

If those civilian buildings would AUTOMATICALLY place a traffic sign when they get built, it would be a huge improvement.

+1
This would remove a lot of the complaints

[btonasse]

The problem I think is not the logistics system, which is great, but the terrible way the player gets information and feedback on it. Look at this screenshot and tell me this is easy to understand: imgur com/a/6Jv2Duk

LPs left for carrying at least some more food? Check.
Enough food in SHQ's inventory? Check.
Units within operational range of road? Check.

And yet the units are all out of supply to some extent. It makes no sense that there are still LPs unused when there's still a demand for food and food available to be distributed.

I'm sure there's a very good reason why more food wasn't delivered to those units, but don't tell me the feedback to the player is good. You look at that screen and there's nothing there that tells you why the units didn't get more food.

But sure, blame it on the players being 'oh, so stupid'...

[Falke]

ORIGINAL: btonasse

Enough food in SHQ's inventory? Check.

Wrong, there was not enough food in the SHQ when it gets sent to the Units.

SHQ > Units is before
Zone > SHQ

[tortugapower]

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

For 1, there is this:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4834257
I fully agree it needs more Documentation/expalantion.

I just read your forum. First, thank you for taking the time to do it! Although I didn't personally glean any additional insight, it's a good starting point, and I hope and expect others will find it helpful.

If people can spare the time, I also recommend DasTactic's three videos on logistics, which start on #11 of his tutorial series:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1otJLaPB-U
and continue in #12 and #13. I personally found 12 and 13 the most useful (#11 is basics).

Nonetheless, if a lengthy forum post and ~1 hour of video tutorials don't provide clarity... I'm not disheartened, but that's more than most gamers are willing to invest.

[btonasse]

ORIGINAL: Falke

ORIGINAL: btonasse

Enough food in SHQ's inventory? Check.

Wrong, there was not enough food in the SHQ when it gets sent to the Units.

SHQ > Units is before
Zone > SHQ

Like I said: "I'm sure there's a very good reason why more food wasn't delivered to those units". Thank you for both providing the reason and demonstrating my point. Nothing in the interface makes that clear. Quite the contrary, the interface hides information (actually it provides that information, but always 1 turn off, which makes no sense, as it's not very useful to only be informed of stuff after the fact).

Now if I want to know if my units will receive supplies the following turn? Unless absolutely nothing changes in terms of how many supplies troops/zones need, the only way to know for sure is to calculate everything, because if I build one new formation or start building/complete an asset, nothing in the interface will give me a preview of how much stuff I will need to move around to satisfy the demand.

[OldSarge]

ORIGINAL: btonasse

ORIGINAL: Falke

ORIGINAL: btonasse

Enough food in SHQ's inventory? Check.

Wrong, there was not enough food in the SHQ when it gets sent to the Units.

SHQ > Units is before
Zone > SHQ

Like I said: "I'm sure there's a very good reason why more food wasn't delivered to those units". Thank you for both providing the reason and demonstrating my point. Nothing in the interface makes that clear. Quite the contrary, the interface hides information (actually it provides that information, but always 1 turn off, which makes no sense, as it's not very useful to only be informed of stuff after the fact).

Now if I want to know if my units will receive supplies the following turn? Unless absolutely nothing changes in terms of how many supplies troops/zones need, the only way to know for sure is to calculate everything, because if I build one new formation or start building/complete an asset, nothing in the interface will give me a preview of how much stuff I will need to move around to satisfy the demand.

Have you looked at the Assets under the management screen?

[GodwinW]

ORIGINAL: shi4stone

i love how i feel like playing transport tycoon in this game. the only grip on the logistics is when private economy build a farm next to my artery road, and me not aware losing half of the capacity to that... so i have to check the preview every turn, not a big deal, but maybe a notification of newly construct asset outside connected towns could be good.

Yes indeed: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4830054

[willgamer]

ORIGINAL: Destragon

The system does have some actual issues. I wrote about that stuff here:
fb.asp?m=4828365
It's pretty much just about how micromanagement heavy the traffic sign system is.
Number 4 in my post there is probably annoying me the most while playing. I keep having to double check my road network to make sure that some civilians didn't suddenly build a mine somewhere, which causes half the logistics, which were heading to some important front, to be diverted and wasted, without giving you any notification or warning beforehand.
If those civilian buildings would AUTOMATICALLY place a traffic sign when they get built, it would be a huge improvement.

This is a great list of improvements that does not completely alter the present LIS system.

The basic idea of better a implementation of civilian improvements, e.g. if a civilian improvement can built its own road, then it can also install its own traffic control is logical.

In fact, perhaps there could be a whole subsystem of civilian traffic controls that may mitigate many of the current LIS criticisms.

[LordAldrich]

ORIGINAL: Nemo84
The logistics system is rather simple to figure out compared to some other wargames (which is a good thing). The changes being requested in the logistics thread are merely aimed at removing brainless busywork. Being forced to place a traffic sign on every road leading to a lvl.1 farm is not a deep strategic decision.

+1

I'd also love to see a mechanism for troops to access resources directly from the tiles that produce them (they already do this when using their organic supply units to pull from roads). My front line absolutely should be able to capture and loot that agri-dome that's outside the city. The need to ship absolutely everything back to SHQ and then back out to the front is silly.

[JWW]

Yes, the log system is brilliant. It is new and can be improved. Vic just needs to make sure it doesn't get broken through improvement. But based on all his past history, I very seriously doubt that will happen.

[wodin]

I feel the problem is more a case of confusion than broken systems.

Some kind of logistics manual would help maybe?

As for micro managing and macro, can't we have both? SO a player can choose more automated mechanics or more hands on.

[ricanuck]

It was a subtle conversation during the beta test that the game would not be dumbed down like many other "strategy" games... and Vic was always in agreement with that ethos.

I doubt he will change his mind. Don't worry.

[kosmoface]

ORIGINAL: ricanuck

It was a subtle conversation during the beta test that the game would not be dumbed down like many other "strategy" games... and Vic was always in agreement with that ethos.

I doubt he will change his mind. Don't worry.

This would be absolutely great. My vote: Please leave Logistics as it is.

I think Player input is great, BUT an artist has a vision and some game devs let their vision blur by outside input and in turn destroy perfectly fine systems i.e. their vision. And I have "lost" some games because of this. This game is a monument, the vision should prevail.

[KingHalford]

Now the ability to remove roads has been added, I feel the original complaint, that "I have to change a huge amount (70+ was the figure given in one example) traffic lights EVERY TURN in order to get my logistics to work" now makes even less sense than it did before.

All follow up arguments that state that the traffic lights are unnecessary micromanagement must assume then that players are either not using the remove road feature, building bad logistics systems themselves or are not building enough supply points that they're constantly having to fiddle with the traffic management to continually squeeze a few extra LIS points. I'm fairly sure this wasn't the way the game was intended, considering that Vic has made some clear design choices in other areas that strongly discourage turn-by-turn exploits like that.

Someone else said it here and I'm also repeating myself from the previous thread but if you're having to micromanage the traffic lights every single turn you're doing something wrong. Everybody has to place a few traffic lights here and there as they develop in the early game, it's no more micromanagement than anything else in this micro-heavy game and it takes two seconds to place a few lights on a junction. Even before removing roads there was never the need to change the traffic lights every single turn, but now the roads are removable it's easy to clean up the excess road systems that the AI makes. I expect the micro necessary to do that is somewhat less intensive than traffic management, so we're all net-winners with that change, and I'm interested to see how Vic is going to approach this, but it feels to me that we're fighting a paper tiger with this one.

[KingHalford]

On the subject of general logistics issues, I think 90% of the confusion lies in players not understanding that changes made to logistics (roads, traffic lights) can take anywhere between 1 and 2 turns to really see any effect. The delay to logistics is explicitly stated in the manual but I think it might be wise if perhaps there's a Tutorial message in-game that highlights when you're units are not receiving supply and why, or there is some direct communication (that's more obvious than digging through the reports) each time it happens (but give me the option to turn it off because now I know how it works I don't want that.)

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: KingHalford
Now the ability to remove roads has been added...

I've been looking for this feature unsuccessfully in v1.03--where is it?

[ricanuck]

About the "traffic lights": I remember at some point in the beta I suggested more control over the "forks" in the LIS system... not taking any credit, but after that Vic came up with the idea and implementation of the traffic lights...

The point is: the TF system is a HUGE improvement over what was before, where there was NO micromanagement (oh, the horror, that word [8|] ) at all, and the system ran itself often wasting valuable LIS points in dead end roads.. now you have control. Use it, or go play Civ. [;)]

Cheers,

[GodwinW]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

ORIGINAL: KingHalford
Now the ability to remove roads has been added...

I've been looking for this feature unsuccessfully in v1.03--where is it?

In the 'Built Road' menu where you choose the type of road.

[GodwinW]

ORIGINAL: ricanuck

About the "traffic lights": I remember at some point in the beta I suggested more control over the "forks" in the LIS system... not taking any credit, but after that Vic came up with the idea and implementation of the traffic lights...

The point is: the TF system is a HUGE improvement over what was before, where there was NO micromanagement (oh, the horror, that word [8|] ) at all, and the system ran itself often wasting valuable LIS points in dead end roads.. now you have control. Use it, or go play Civ. [;)]

Cheers,

Oh man, thank you and Vic for that. Such a huge improvement over not having them!

[Bleek]

Don't allow the vocal minority to ruin things.

True of many aspects in life; logistics included! [:D]