John Tiller and AI

[FAA]

I would like to know the game, of this type, that doesn’t have silly AI. I’ve decided it’s just not possible to make AI – with the resources available to the typical developers of this type of game – that is complex and dynamic enough to not look dumb. I only ever play my dumb self now, single player, in these JTS games, in hot seat mode. That works very well. For a challenge a PBEM opponent is very easy to find over in The Blitz, normally.

The only game I know, of this type, which takes seriously the AI challenge, is Command Ops 2. And even that’s a continual work in progress.

Mr Tiller, on the other hand, seems very hands off about AI refinement, so I wouldn’t expect any changes. Davids team here at WDS are not responsible for that kind of coding, I believe. So the AI limits are nothing to do with them or their work.

https://www.wargamedesignstudio.com/202 ... -update-2/

That’s very interesting, too bad they still don’t highlight this on their website. Some of their games are almost unplayable against the AI.

[Rosseau]

I have almost all of the Tiller/HPS games. I think the Nappy series may be the worst - AI sitting next to a key objective and not taking it, etc. However, when creating or editing a scenario, you can program initial AI orders and it works fairly well.

Otherwise, I've had great fun with the Squad Battles series, for one, but tend to mod them heavily. Also, do not play PBEM.

HPS Tigers Unleashed is now fully playable (imo) and is a unique in its depth of simulation. However, one must be willing to create scenarios, as it is more of a "test tube" type game for WW2 rather than a "beat the AI" type game. For me, this is the fun part: creating an engagement and seeing what happens after giving orders to maneuver groups and then leaving them alone rather than micromanaging. This would also be historically correct when playing as a regimental commander.

Point of Attack 2 (Modern) is less polished, with less units, and runs with only an occasional error.

But yes, WDS has done an excellent job with the free updates, but the AI has certainly not been touched, afaik.

Best regards

Mike

[Ekaton]

Many games have decent AI these days - Shadow Empire, Decisive Campaigns, War in the West, War in the East, even War in the Pacific can be somewhat decent with mods. Open General, which is an improvement over the old Panzer General is much better as well. JTS is about a decade behind other companies when it comes to AI. I wouldn't call Command Ops 2 great, but it's lightyears ahead of them.

I second that most of JTS games are unplayable against the AI.

[Rosseau]

Best AI in a game (for me) is Field of Glory 2. I've put more hours in that one than any other game besides the old Steel Panthers. If you open the AI files, you can see how well it's coded.

[Ekaton]

ORIGINAL: Rosseau

Best AI in a game (for me) is Field of Glory 2. I've put more hours in that one than any other game besides the old Steel Panthers. If you open the AI files, you can see how well it's coded.

I completely forgot about FoG2. It's absolutely wonderful.

[gamer78]

How do you program France'14 'Race to the sea' and 'Campaign Early' scenario? Besides when to deploy artillery and machine guns for hundreds tactically, elevation advantage, digging in inf vs.. able to use roads effectively for regiments. Also operational thinking more complicated. None of this in GG games at this scale. Still tactical side of things could be improved for Tiller games.

[FAA]

ORIGINAL: gamer78

How do you program France'14 'Race to the sea' and 'Campaign Early' scenario? Besides when to deploy artillery and machine guns for hundreds tactically, elevation advantage, digging in inf vs.. able to use roads effectively for regiments. Also operational thinking more complicated. None of this in GG games at this scale. Still tactical side of things could be improved for Tiller games.

Many games on a similar scale have very good AIs. Shadow Empire is infinitely more complex and has great AI.

[Strelaoz]

ORIGINAL: FAA

I would like to know the game, of this type, that doesn’t have silly AI. I’ve decided it’s just not possible to make AI – with the resources available to the typical developers of this type of game – that is complex and dynamic enough to not look dumb. I only ever play my dumb self now, single player, in these JTS games, in hot seat mode. That works very well. For a challenge a PBEM opponent is very easy to find over in The Blitz, normally.

The only game I know, of this type, which takes seriously the AI challenge, is Command Ops 2. And even that’s a continual work in progress.

Mr Tiller, on the other hand, seems very hands off about AI refinement, so I wouldn’t expect any changes. Davids team here at WDS are not responsible for that kind of coding, I believe. So the AI limits are nothing to do with them or their work.

https://www.wargamedesignstudio.com/202 ... -update-2/

That’s very interesting, too bad they still don’t highlight this on their website. Some of their games are almost unplayable against the AI. Too bad they wouldn’t publish my response to that, they restricted comments - mine is apparently still awaiting approval.

FFS, I live in Singapore and was asleep. I approved your comment as soon as I woke up. We restrict comments because of the extensive spam received, but we do not censor any ‘genuine’ comments submitted.

[FAA]

ORIGINAL: Strelaoz

ORIGINAL: FAA

I would like to know the game, of this type, that doesn’t have silly AI. I’ve decided it’s just not possible to make AI – with the resources available to the typical developers of this type of game – that is complex and dynamic enough to not look dumb. I only ever play my dumb self now, single player, in these JTS games, in hot seat mode. That works very well. For a challenge a PBEM opponent is very easy to find over in The Blitz, normally.

The only game I know, of this type, which takes seriously the AI challenge, is Command Ops 2. And even that’s a continual work in progress.

Mr Tiller, on the other hand, seems very hands off about AI refinement, so I wouldn’t expect any changes. Davids team here at WDS are not responsible for that kind of coding, I believe. So the AI limits are nothing to do with them or their work.

https://www.wargamedesignstudio.com/202 ... -update-2/

That’s very interesting, too bad they still don’t highlight this on their website. Some of their games are almost unplayable against the AI. Too bad they wouldn’t publish my response to that, they restricted comments - mine is apparently still awaiting approval.

FFS, I live in Singapore and was asleep. I approved your comment as soon as I woke up. We restrict comments because of the extensive spam received, but we do not censor any ‘genuine’ comments submitted.

Alright then, sorry. A lot of companies censor their forums/blogs these days to avoid negative opinions, great that you’re not like that.

[FAA]

ORIGINAL: gamer78

How do you program France'14 'Race to the sea' and 'Campaign Early' scenario? Besides when to deploy artillery and machine guns for hundreds tactically, elevation advantage, digging in inf vs.. able to use roads effectively for regiments. Also operational thinking more complicated. None of this in GG games at this scale. Still tactical side of things could be improved for Tiller games.

In Serbia ‘14 the AI has no idea how to use machine guns, doesn’t keep units close to HQ, cannot use artillery properly, and cannot even move properly. It doesn’t retreat properly either. Nothing works. At least in my experience.

WWI may be a bit more difficult to program than WWII, but that’s a whole new level of bad.

[Simulacra53]

Maybe rename thread FAA and JTS games, as it seems to be about some grudge.

[demyansk]

I don't play enough of the games to worry about a bad AI. It allows me to win once in a while[:)]

[Lobster]

ORIGINAL: Simulacra53

Maybe rename thread FAA and JTS games, as it seems to be about some grudge.

Or "Why I Hate John Tiller's Games But Keep Buying Them Anyway". [:D]

I don't mind mediocre Programmed Opponents. They make me look like a bloody military genius. [8D]

[eastwindrain]

Come on guy's give the AI a chance, under set advantage move the slider to at least plus 50%, or what the heck try plus 100%.
The vanilla AI advantage setting is zero which is equal to easy, so what setting do you use.

[gamer78]

ORIGINAL: FAA

ORIGINAL: gamer78

How do you program France'14 'Race to the sea' and 'Campaign Early' scenario? Besides when to deploy artillery and machine guns for hundreds tactically, elevation advantage, digging in inf vs.. able to use roads effectively for regiments. Also operational thinking more complicated. None of this in GG games at this scale. Still tactical side of things could be improved for Tiller games.

In Serbia ‘14 the AI has no idea how to use machine guns, doesn’t keep units close to HQ, cannot use artillery properly, and cannot even move properly. It doesn’t retreat properly either. Nothing works. At least in my experience.

WWI may be a bit more difficult to program than WWII, but that’s a whole new level of bad.

What I rank AI levels in JTS games:
1-WW1
2-WW2
3-Napoleonic

I didn't play Panzer Battles that could be different.

I think main advantage for AI in WW1 games are both AI and player can not choose specific targets. Although it was changed in recent patch field guns can fire specific targets; but only direct artillery. And forces don't divide into smaller ones like in Napoleonic skirmishers. Not against AI but also in pbem I didn't like opponent making all light infantry into skirmishers. I think Napoleonic series needs the most house rules than other.

Anyway the other problem I see about AI it doesn't know when to shoot and assault. Typically a player would fire once and see it is disrupted. Then assault.

Serbia'14 seems to be cool.Early 'Çetnik' Serbian militia&partizans in game.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Lobster

ORIGINAL: Simulacra53

Maybe rename thread FAA and JTS games, as it seems to be about some grudge.

Or "Why I Hate John Tiller's Games But Keep Buying Them Anyway". [:D]

I don't mind mediocre Programmed Opponents. They make me look like a bloody military genius. [8D]


...

+1

and as ever it depends, I've played some of the Minsk 44 scenarios on the standard settings and the AI is fine, but then its essentially a puzzle game if you take the Soviets, can you break through a multiple defensive field at a certain speed or not?

[eastwindrain]

I have been playing the new Minsk'44 Gold campaign as the Germans with the Russian AI set at 50% advantage, got half way thro this mega game with all Axis reinforcements finally arrived, what a fantastic detailed map and OOB.

When I play these games against the AI I do some modding, here is a link to a complete game mod I did earlier.
If you decide to use it please don't overwrite your original copy, copy the game to another location and install the mod.
download link
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AtveAAprCcpnbK8Oj2u ... U?e=bFgXZJ

Better to read about it first here http://www.theblitz.org/message_boards/ ... ?tid=73509

[Lobster]

Oh, Task Force Games: East Wind Rain. I have that one. [:)]

[Zorch]

My experience with Tiller games is that the AI is good in situations where it can sit back and kill units. It can be confuzzled by maneuvering. Overall I would rate the Tiller AI as average.

[eastwindrain]

Ok, and what percentage of advantage do you give the AI.