Nerf envirosuits

[Pymous]

(thanks)
You are right, lets refocus on the topic.
I tried to summurize all the great ideas from you guys (first draft, sorry I probably forgot some things or made mistakes at this stage. I need sleep now)

[LordAldrich]

I like the visual summary!

Making weight have a major effect on the foot movement type would be good not only for this issue with envirosuits, but could also help fix the fact that artillery weight has no effect on portability. It would incentive the use of motorized elements, which only makes sense - who the fuck is gonna foot march across Mars in a spacesuit to fight a war? (How do they even resupply food and so on if they don't have a place to take off their helmets?)

On that note, I think you could simplify without losing much by folding the engine concept into the energy concept and expecting the player to use motorized assets when high mobility is needed. There is a topic related to this one that asks: "why are diesel fuel engines the default technology on airless moons"? While there are game design reasons (it makes fuel an interesting resource), it makes NO sense at all from a fluff standpoint (like, how does combustion even work when there's no oxidizer in the atmosphere?).

It would take some balancing work, but I really think that hostile atmospheres should push a game towards electric engines and a power focused economy, and that fuel engines and the associated economy should be a feature of planets with breathable atmospheres (or at least ones capable of supporting combustion). That alone would make planets feel very different.

I like the straightforward HP malus for increasing levels of environment protection. You just have to make sure that the malus is still an improvement over whatever the environment penalty is (and a lot of the time, it should be "instant death"). I especially like the idea of using energy resources to regulate temperature hazards.

[Atros]

ORIGINAL: MatthewVilter

(I'm reading 7+ hours of EVA time for the 1960-70's Apollo spacesuits.)

I'm not arguing for woo woo space magic or a Moore's Law of spacesuit efficiency but with time, resources, and motivation design innovations and engineering improvements are usually inevitable (though, yes, sometimes impossible).

An example of futuristic technology that doesn't break the laws of physics might be the mechanical counterpressure spacesuit design.


I agree that proper shielding against intense radiation seems like the the most intractable problem.

I'm not completely filled about all details on every moon mission, but to my knowledge all those extra-long Moon sctivities were pretty much not exactly EVA, as they were practically driving around and thus had possibility to fill some extra air supplies to the moon-car. Thus I tried to pick some medium where I know they actually did something else than sit, which is extremely non-oxygen hemorrhaging activity. Even simply walking gives exponential growth to oxygen usage compared to sitting chill and driving around.

Yeah, those kinds of suits are the common item in any respectable SciFi, but there comes certain problems with those. First is the fact that anything skin-tight enough to block air from moving is hard and slow to suit up. Second is the fact that air being one of best insulators of heat means that suit that is fit to skin usually isn't very warm, especially in near absolute-zero temperatures, which would need active heating, which needs energy, which would create requirements for long term usage regardless of the energy source (short of miniature nuclear battery, which would probably need an exoskeleton to move in itself).

Third notice is that when you look at the shoes in those pictures, including the one in "The Martian", there doesn't seem to be any airtight seal next to the boots and even if the suit would be airtight against the skin, you don't need to be a nuclear scientist to know that skin-exposure to air or other medium with temperature under -50 C¤ for more than few short moments is a bad idea.

There probably is a reason that only the suits used inside spacecraft are even close to something similar...

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

On the mater of "why do they still know how to make a space suit":
If the planet needs space suits, there are two options:
a) Your culture still knows how to make them
b) Your culture has died out, either via conquest or the hard way.

c) Your culture has learned to do something similar or close enough.
d) Your culture has more or less adapted to the planetary conditions and can live without those suits or with something less that would have been terminal to their ancestors.

[Atros]

ORIGINAL: LordAldrich

I like the visual summary!

Making weight have a major effect on the foot movement type would be good not only for this issue with envirosuits, but could also help fix the fact that artillery weight has no effect on portability. It would incentive the use of motorized elements, which only makes sense - who the fuck is gonna foot march across Mars in a spacesuit to fight a war? (How do they even resupply food and so on if they don't have a place to take off their helmets?)

On that note, I think you could simplify without losing much by folding the engine concept into the energy concept and expecting the player to use motorized assets when high mobility is needed. There is a topic related to this one that asks: "why are diesel fuel engines the default technology on airless moons"? While there are game design reasons (it makes fuel an interesting resource), it makes NO sense at all from a fluff standpoint (like, how does combustion even work when there's no oxidizer in the atmosphere?).

It would take some balancing work, but I really think that hostile atmospheres should push a game towards electric engines and a power focused economy, and that fuel engines and the associated economy should be a feature of planets with breathable atmospheres (or at least ones capable of supporting combustion). That alone would make planets feel very different.

I like the straightforward HP malus for increasing levels of environment protection. You just have to make sure that the malus is still an improvement over whatever the environment penalty is (and a lot of the time, it should be "instant death"). I especially like the idea of using energy resources to regulate temperature hazards.

I think we can safely assume that when those infantry battalions are on the move, they have their own electronic donkeys or regular donkeys that move some of their equipment around, as well as some airtight (or not) tents. Also there has never in history been artillery battalions that haven't had horses or vehicles to move the artillery pieces around in strategic movement or even on tactical movement when the heavier arty-pieces are on play. Also it is safe to assume that the supplies are carried mostly by external supplying organization, when they are supplied by SHQ.

It is also worth noting that "fuel" in this game doesn't necessarily mean "oil based fuel", but could also be hydrogen-based rocket fuel, which would also be the main power source in any scenarios about inhabiting Mars. This is the base reason why finding water on Mars is so important, to be able to make fuel in situ. This was maybe best explained by Walther White in Breaking Bad's last season. If you can't burn fuel because the atmosphere doesn't have oxygen, you just need to take the oxygen with you and thus water is the perfect solution for this, as it has in itself already both the most weight-efficient fuel known thus far and the oxygen carried in same package, you only need to separate them first for use (which does consume energy).

The problem with environmental protection reducing HP comes when you use it on breathable planets, as there sure it does limit mobility, but cuts in your insulating suit aren't probably that lethal as to affect battalion-scale units. Also if you make the system too complex, not only does it need much programming work for little gain, it also means more computer resource usage (the planet-generation phase is slow enough already) and making the code more prone to bugs.

Thus it would be enough for me to separate the armor and life support equipment choices, have IC cost for adding enviromental equipment to the unit for the fact that it means more complex production and give some weight for the equipment to feature the fact of increased encumbrance and more limited mobility, which would drain somewhat the "engine efficiency" (whatever that means in case of infantry).

[Elver]

It is also worth noting that "fuel" in this game doesn't necessarily mean "oil based fuel", but could also be hydrogen-based rocket fuel, which would also be the main power source in any scenarios about inhabiting Mars.

I actually remember a few references where fuel is referred to as petrol in events, etc.

[MatthewVilter]

Basically the fuel resource should represent whatever combination of hydrogen compound and oxidizer is practical for the planetary environment.

Diesel/ethanol can be synthesized from food or refined from fossil fuels on planets with a long biological history. Hydrogen/methane could be extracted or synthesized from the atmosphere (depending on the atmosphere) or water.

If oxidizer can't just be taken directly from the atmosphere by an engine it would need to be synthesized along with the fuel (probably at an increased cost of energy and maybe water) and carried at additional logistical (if nothing else) cost.



I must defend the honor of high-altitude flatus expulsion inducing high fashion vac suits!

ORIGINAL: Atros

Yeah, those kinds of suits are the common item in any respectable SciFi, but there comes certain problems with those. First is the fact that anything skin-tight enough to block air from moving is hard and slow to suit up.

There should be some method of adjusting tension. Anything from pressure tubing to memory alloy to MEMS winches on each elastic fiber.

Second is the fact that air being one of best insulators of heat means that suit that is fit to skin usually isn't very warm, especially in near absolute-zero temperatures, which would need active heating, which needs energy, which would create requirements for long term usage regardless of the energy source (short of miniature nuclear battery, which would probably need an exoskeleton to move in itself).

Vacuum is a better insulator than air so unless you're in a hot environment and need insulation for heat shielding the bigger worry is dumping the wearers body heat which can actually be achieved by letting the wearer's sweat sublimate into vacuum (maybe not a great idea if water is a scarce resource).

Third notice is that when you look at the shoes in those pictures, including the one in "The Martian", there doesn't seem to be any airtight seal next to the boots and even if the suit would be airtight against the skin, you don't need to be a nuclear scientist to know that skin-exposure to air or other medium with temperature under -50 C¤ for more than few short moments is a bad idea.

I don't know what the stocking/foot covering parts of these suits would look like exactly but I'm pretty sure the hiking boots go on or are built over the pressure suit.

There probably is a reason that only the suits used inside spacecraft are even close to something similar...

Yeah honestly I think there are probably a lot of difficult problems with them. The neck air dam and gloves seem like particularly tricky bits to me. But as I was getting at earlier I see space suits as something that we are many decades behind the curve on. It doesn't bother me at all to hand wave a lot of the necessary engineering/tailoring innovations because I see it as a relatively uncharted design space and the laws of physics don't seem like a particularly aggressive opponent in this case.

[LordAldrich]

ORIGINAL: MatthewVilter

Basically the fuel resource should represent whatever combination of hydrogen compound and oxidizer is practical for the planetary environment.

This is exactly what the game should avoid. Having a generic fuel resource that is somehow "oil" on one planet and "self-oxidizing rocket fuel" on another is bland, flavorless nonsense that makes all planets feel and play the same.

[zgrssd]

ORIGINAL: Atros

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

On the mater of "why do they still know how to make a space suit":
If the planet needs space suits, there are two options:
a) Your culture still knows how to make them
b) Your culture has died out, either via conquest or the hard way.

c) Your culture has learned to do something similar or close enough.
d) Your culture has more or less adapted to the planetary conditions and can live without those suits or with something less that would have been terminal to their ancestors.

C That is called "still knowing how to make them".

D - are you talking about evolving to adapt to the planet? In a few hundredred years? Or Genetic Engineering to adapt?
I can not decide wich of those two would be less unlikely.
If anything of that kind happened, it happened during colonisation. With all those centuries of no fighting for survival and GR tech around.

It is also not D, because you removed the need for the list by removing the need for Environmental suits.

[MatthewVilter]

ORIGINAL: LordAldrich


This is exactly what the game should avoid. Having a generic fuel resource that is somehow "oil" on one planet and "self-oxidizing rocket fuel" on another is bland, flavorless nonsense that makes all planets feel and play the same.

Did you read my next three sentences? o.O

[LordAldrich]

ORIGINAL: MatthewVilter
Did you read my next three sentences? o.O

Yes. Those ideas are already in the game - Bio Fuel is a starting tech, Methane Synthesis and Synthetic Fuels are both under the "Advanced Chemistry" portion of the research tree. I'm unclear on what you're actually suggesting?

Wouldn't it make for a more interesting game if fuel-combustion engines simply didn't work on an airless moon? Big sweeping effects like that are good game design! If you want to play Mad Max just roll a world that has a combustible atmosphere and fossil fuels. Why are we trying to shoehorn in some head-cannon about insane rocket-fuel powered moon tanks that rely on wasting immense amounts of life support on agricultural bio-fuel? Why not just make electric engines the baseline tech on those worlds?

[Atros]

ORIGINAL: MatthewVilter

ORIGINAL: Atros

Yeah, those kinds of suits are the common item in any respectable SciFi, but there comes certain problems with those. First is the fact that anything skin-tight enough to block air from moving is hard and slow to suit up.

There should be some method of adjusting tension. Anything from pressure tubing to memory alloy to MEMS winches on each elastic fiber.

It is possible there might be ways, but not in near foreseeable future to my knowledge, which would definitely make producing them a problem in devastated newly low-tech world.

ORIGINAL: MatthewVilter

Second is the fact that air being one of best insulators of heat means that suit that is fit to skin usually isn't very warm, especially in near absolute-zero temperatures, which would need active heating, which needs energy, which would create requirements for long term usage regardless of the energy source (short of miniature nuclear battery, which would probably need an exoskeleton to move in itself).

Vacuum is a better insulator than air so unless you're in a hot environment and need insulation for heat shielding the bigger worry is dumping the wearers body heat which can actually be achieved by letting the wearer's sweat sublimate into vacuum (maybe not a great idea if water is a scarce resource).

Vacuum is better insulator, true, but you probably don't want that vacuum to touch your skin. I haven't read or heard enough about human experiments in exposing them to vacuum, but there is quite high probability of something similar than osmosis happening there. Thus you would need second layer in between to apply vacuum, which would mean thicker suit... And yet there is no such thing as perfect insulation.

The sweating would be easy easy to handle, simply allow there to be water absorbent material layer first that conducts the water away from the body, keeping the heat in would be the tricky part. Heat like any energy can transfer by three ways, conduction, convection and radiation and radiation can move even in the vacuum and conduction happens as long as two even slightly conducting layers even slightly touch each other. What makes heat worse to insulate is its tendency to change transfer from one to another in the run and thus even the vacuum wouldn't have complete insulation.

I start to believe your theory the same day as there starts to drop fashionable, less than centimetre thick winter clothes that can withstand even -30 decrees celsius winter temperatures in my country and see that those polar expedition people seems like anything but stuffed bears when they are doing anything in the polar areas.

ORIGINAL: MatthewVilter

Third notice is that when you look at the shoes in those pictures, including the one in "The Martian", there doesn't seem to be any airtight seal next to the boots and even if the suit would be airtight against the skin, you don't need to be a nuclear scientist to know that skin-exposure to air or other medium with temperature under -50 C¤ for more than few short moments is a bad idea.

I don't know what the stocking/foot covering parts of these suits would look like exactly but I'm pretty sure the hiking boots go on or are built over the pressure suit.

So your asstronauts run around in baby clothes eh?

(The pictures had separate clearly footwear, so I am assuming we are not talking about the current type overall-included astronaut boots, hey it was you who wanted to start talk about astro-fashion)

That would work for the air insulation, but those Mike's you are wearing (you know, pirated Nike's) would need to be quite many sizes larger to offset all the insulation needed to the included sock-part of the overall. Also if the insulation is in the sock, it would probably need to be double thickness compared to the rest of the suit, as it would besides the insulating layers also have material that keeps the insulation intact in gravity environment, as the body weight has a tendency to squeeze anything under it. Usually that is why the boot is included into the spacesuit and that is why external boots would almost certainly have some kind of lock to lock them in place and avoid the need to include the insulation inside into the overall under.

Besides non-locked separate boots would create the problem of small rocks going inside them and eating away that sock part anyways and thus it would need to be made sturdy to not break like cotton socks in a long hike with rock on your boot. This naturally doesn't even take into account the fact that extra slits in an environment like Moon or Mars where there could be buildup of irradiated dust would probably be bad idea for your long term health.

ORIGINAL: MatthewVilter

There probably is a reason that only the suits used inside spacecraft are even close to something similar...

Yeah honestly I think there are probably a lot of difficult problems with them. The neck air dam and gloves seem like particularly tricky bits to me. But as I was getting at earlier I see space suits as something that we are many decades behind the curve on. It doesn't bother me at all to hand wave a lot of the necessary engineering/tailoring innovations because I see it as a relatively uncharted design space and the laws of physics don't seem like a particularly aggressive opponent in this case.

In this case, there probably are two approaches, either they are made the traditional way and there are placed hard materials for locking them in place and they look less fashionable or there is a mechanism that self-insulates it against the material, which probably would provide high risk of critical material failure. The reason we use 70's tech now still in space is because it has been proven to work reliably in every scenario and thus I am having hard time to see some world shattering changes in the design without some unobtainium-material that actually melds and unmelds with other materials on the fly.

Anyways I wouldn't held my breath to ever see some Jetsons-style space suits in real use outside SciFi.

[zgrssd]

ORIGINAL: Atros

ORIGINAL: MatthewVilter

ORIGINAL: Atros

Yeah, those kinds of suits are the common item in any respectable SciFi, but there comes certain problems with those. First is the fact that anything skin-tight enough to block air from moving is hard and slow to suit up.

There should be some method of adjusting tension. Anything from pressure tubing to memory alloy to MEMS winches on each elastic fiber.

It is possible there might be ways, but not in near foreseeable future to my knowledge, which would definitely make producing them a problem in devastated newly low-tech world.

Graphene would propably fall under "high tech material". We have been trying to figure out how to make that stuff for ~100 years.

The Solutions?
- "micromechanical cleavage technique". Or as it is commonly known: The Scotch tape technique.
- Lasers from old DVD burners

The decay of the technology is dragging on over centuries. If there is anything that is as nessesary as environmental suits on a moon and there is no supply, you can bet humans figure out how to replace it on lower tech!


"Vacuum is better insulator, true, but you probably don't want that vacuum to touch your skin. I haven't read or heard enough about human experiments in exposing them to vacuum, but there is quite high probability of something similar than osmosis happening there. Thus you would need second layer in between to apply vacuum, which would mean thicker suit... And yet there is no such thing as perfect insulation."
I know 1 NASA scientist answering those questions:
https://io9.gizmodo.com/what-would-real ... um-5709637

[zgrssd]

ORIGINAL: Atros

ORIGINAL: MatthewVilter

ORIGINAL: Atros

Yeah, those kinds of suits are the common item in any respectable SciFi, but there comes certain problems with those. First is the fact that anything skin-tight enough to block air from moving is hard and slow to suit up.

There should be some method of adjusting tension. Anything from pressure tubing to memory alloy to MEMS winches on each elastic fiber.

It is possible there might be ways, but not in near foreseeable future to my knowledge, which would definitely make producing them a problem in devastated newly low-tech world.

Graphene would propably fall under "high tech material". We have been trying to figure out how to make that stuff for ~100 years.

The Solutions?
- "micromechanical cleavage technique". Or as it is commonly known: The Scotch tape technique.
- Lasers from old DVD burners

The decay of the technology is dragging on over centuries. If there is anything that is as nessesary as environmental suits on a moon and there is no supply, you can bet humans figure out how to replace it on lower tech!


"Vacuum is better insulator, true, but you probably don't want that vacuum to touch your skin. I haven't read or heard enough about human experiments in exposing them to vacuum, but there is quite high probability of something similar than osmosis happening there. Thus you would need second layer in between to apply vacuum, which would mean thicker suit... And yet there is no such thing as perfect insulation."
I know 1 NASA scientist answering those questions:
https://io9.gizmodo.com/what-would-real ... um-5709637