Finland

[dhucul2011]

Using the most recent version with the hotfix.

When I DOW USSR then I get Finland Joins the Axis and USSR Shocked by the Axis Attack while I am still on the War Maps. I don't remember this happening before. Usually once I left the war maps I would get those popups?

Also, why is Finland joining right away?

[BillRunacre]

That does seem odd about getting the message while on the War Map screen.

In answer to your question about Finland:

If the Axis declare war on the USSR then providing Finland has a pro-Axis leaning then it will enter the war. Alternatively, Finland will join the Axis providing it has a pro-Axis leaning and Axis forces have a unit within 1 hex of either Pskov, Ostrov, Polotsk, 4 hexes of Leningrad or 5 of Novgorod.

[Hubert Cater]

Thanks David and I see the issue regarding the POPUPs, looks to be an old problem for some events that only seems to be noticed now for some odd reason. Tested it against v1.17.00 etc and it happened there too.

Consider this fixed for the next update.

[Taifun]

Hi Bill,

You say: If the Axis declare war on the USSR then providing Finland has a pro-Axis leaning then it will enter the war. Alternatively, Finland will join the Axis providing it has a pro-Axis leaning and Axis forces have a unit within 1 hex of either Pskov, Ostrov, Polotsk, 4 hexes of Leningrad or 5 of Novgorod.

For me it is not clear the meaning of Alternatively: in both statements Finland has a pro-Axis leaning so, what triggers really the Fins entering the war? In my past games as soon as the war was declared by Germany past June 1941, say July or August (late Barbarossa) it will automatically declare war, seriously disrupting my original Russian setup.

[The Land]

ORIGINAL: Taifun

Hi Bill,

You say: If the Axis declare war on the USSR then providing Finland has a pro-Axis leaning then it will enter the war. Alternatively, Finland will join the Axis providing it has a pro-Axis leaning and Axis forces have a unit within 1 hex of either Pskov, Ostrov, Polotsk, 4 hexes of Leningrad or 5 of Novgorod.

For me it is not clear the meaning of Alternatively: in both statements Finland has a pro-Axis leaning so, what triggers really the Fins entering the war? In my past games as soon as the war was declared by Germany past June 1941, say July or August (late Barbarossa) it will automatically declare war, seriously disrupting my original Russian setup.

So I checked the event scripts and it's exactly as Bill says:

So -
- if the Axis DoW Russia and Finland is Axis-inclined at that time, Finland will join
- if at any time Russia is in the war (by any method, DoW or no Dow) and the Axis has troops near those cities, and Finland is Axis-inclined, Finland will also join the war

This also explains what you are seeing.

[dhucul2011]

IMO Finland should never enter the war UNLESS the USSR had done the Winter War. If there is no Winter War and Germany simply uses diplomacy to get Finland Axis leaning it should not happen.

In reality the Finns would have NOT attacked the USSR if the Winter War did not happen.

I would suggest that only if they reach 100% Axis through heavy and expensive diplomacy do they join or if the Allies or USSR attack Sweden.

[The Land]

ORIGINAL: dhucul2011

IMO Finland should never enter the war UNLESS the USSR had done the Winter War. If there is no Winter War and Germany simply uses diplomacy to get Finland Axis leaning it should not happen.

In reality the Finns would have NOT attacked the USSR if the Winter War did not happen.

I would suggest that only if they reach 100% Axis through heavy and expensive diplomacy do they join or if the Allies or USSR attack Sweden.

Why not?

The game has a diplomacy mechanic, which affects every other nation in the game. Why should Finland not be affected by it?

[Taifun]

This means that if Finland has already an Axis leaning, as soon as Barbarossa starts they declare war automatically? (I should start to read scripts [:(]) I always took care to delay their advance in the North front to delay the Finns war entry...

[The Land]

ORIGINAL: Taifun

This means that if Finland has already an Axis leaning, as soon as Barbarossa starts they declare war automatically? (I should start to read scripts [:(]) I always took care to delay their advance in the North front to delay the Finns war entry...

So long as the war starts with a German DoW on Russia, and not by Russian mobilisation reaching 1005 - yes.

Basically all the Allies can do is either support Finland in the Winter War or diplo the Finns onto their side...

[dhucul2011]

What I am saying is that if there is no Winter War then Finland should ONLY join the Axis if Germany diplomacy's them to 100%. There should be no other way that they join regardless of how far Axis move into USSR. Right now I believe that they will join if they have just "an Axis leaning" and the Axis reach certain hexes, regardless of whether there has been a Winter War?

[PvtBenjamin]

That would probably be more historically correct dhucul.

One wise man said if the game follows history the Allies win.

I, like you, for a long period wanted more exact historical accuracy in the game.

Eventually I just came to the conclusion that these are the rules and I altered my strategies accordingly.

If the Finland rules were to be changed as you suggest it would tilt the balance of power significantly towards the Allies and major changes would be needed as an offset to keep balance.

[BillRunacre]

ORIGINAL: dhucul2011

What I am saying is that if there is no Winter War then Finland should ONLY join the Axis if Germany diplomacy's them to 100%. There should be no other way that they join regardless of how far Axis move into USSR. Right now I believe that they will join if they have just "an Axis leaning" and the Axis reach certain hexes, regardless of whether there has been a Winter War?

My only concern here is that the USSR would then know that the Winter War isn't worth engaging in, and I'm not sure we could ever provide enough of an incentive for them to carry it out?

[Sugar]

Another consequence would be no human would ever fight the Winter War as Allies, and miss the opportunity to completely screw russian allied leaning via expeditionary DE, hehe.

Seriously I regard Finnland as an opportunity to gather xp for russian troops, as all better players do. The finnish OoB is a mess, allthough the troops now start at 10 supply in the first turn, there`s no way to get Mannerheim fast enough to the next town in PbEM.

I just payed 146 MPPs for motorization to get him where he`s needed against the AI. A movement of 1 hex is a joke on this map.

[dhucul2011]

It just doesn't feel right. There is no way they would have attacked if there had not been a Winter War.

I am not sure what the USSR gets right now if they say yes but it could be increased to:

1. An HQ, artillery and 2 armies in Leningrad with 1.0 experience from the Winter War.
2. A garrison in Vyborg.
3. A NM boost when triggering the Winter War.
4. A morale boost for all USSR units to represent experience gained in fighting in winter conditions.
5. An MPP boost to represent the industrial facilities taken over around Vyborg.

This would make it interesting to the USSR player.

[PvtBenjamin]

ORIGINAL: dhucul2011

It just doesn't feel right. There is no way they would have attacked if there had not been a Winter War.

I am not sure what the USSR gets right now if they say yes but it could be increased to:

1. An HQ, artillery and 2 armies in Leningrad with 1.0 experience from the Winter War.
2. A garrison in Vyborg.
3. A NM boost when triggering the Winter War.
4. A morale boost for all USSR units to represent experience gained in fighting in winter conditions.
5. An MPP boost to represent the industrial facilities taken over around Vyborg.

This would make it interesting to the USSR player.

Sounds good to me

[Sugar]

Sounds good to me

For sure it does, it exclusively favours the Allies. [>:]

The only change within the event is that it fires immediately after the german DoW. Fine, this gives the Allie even more time to take out the Finns. This isn`t and never was a historical simulation, and even if it was, speculation is ahistorical.

Instead I would suggest to place Mannerheim in Lappeenranta, so that the Finns have a slight chance to stand up a few turns, or move the entire army to Helsinki without Winter War.

[PvtBenjamin]

It was joke Shuggy [:D]

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin


If the Finland rules were to be changed as you suggest it would tilt the balance of power significantly towards the Allies and major changes would be needed as an offset to keep balance

The Finn/Soviet could be changed to add more interest tho.

[dhucul2011]

But its not only non-historical, its completely out of the realm of reality to say that the Finns would join the Axis if they had not been attacked by the USSR.

If the Axis spend alot on diplomacy then, yes, OK, just like any other nation, but to have an auto DOW on the USSR with no reason to do so? Its ridiculous.

Maybe if the Winter War was made a mandatory event for the USSR this would solve all issues.