OMG, logistics making this game suck

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pzgndr
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RE: OMG, logistics making this game suck

Post by pzgndr »

ORIGINAL: Poliorcetes
Honestly this sucks... I have played strategy games (computer and board) for over 35 years now

+1

Over 45 years now for me. And yes, I understand logistics is important; I was an Asst Brigade S4 logistics officer in Germany in the late 80s. And I understand some (many?) players perversely enjoy micromanaging things. But some (many?) players like us just want to play strategy and wouldn't mind having a simplified logistics system option so playing the game does not seem like work. Been there, done that; I want to play if/when I get a chance.

Seriously, must we micromanage trucks, truckstations, gas stations, traffic lights, etc.? I still have enough gray hairs from brigade deployments to Grafenwoehr and Hohenfels moving vehicles back and forth using railcars, 30' trailers, 40' trailers, and road marches. Give me an in-game AI assistant or something to do that crap; I don't want to. Just saying...
Bill Macon
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zgrssd
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RE: OMG, logistics making this game suck

Post by zgrssd »

ORIGINAL: pzgndr
ORIGINAL: Poliorcetes
Honestly this sucks... I have played strategy games (computer and board) for over 35 years now

+1

Over 45 years now for me. And yes, I understand logistics is important; I was an Asst Brigade S4 logistics officer in Germany in the late 80s. And I understand some (many?) players perversely enjoy micromanaging things. But some (many?) players like us just want to play strategy and wouldn't mind having a simplified logistics system option so playing the game does not seem like work. Been there, done that; I want to play if/when I get a chance.

Seriously, must we micromanage trucks, truckstations, gas stations, traffic lights, etc.? I still have enough gray hairs from brigade deployments to Grafenwoehr and Hohenfels moving vehicles back and forth using railcars, 30' trailers, 40' trailers, and road marches. Give me an in-game AI assistant or something to do that crap; I don't want to. Just saying...
With the pull system, there is no more micromanagement in the Beta.
With 1.04beta4 the hard to find edge cases may even be most fixed.
JWW
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RE: OMG, logistics making this game suck

Post by JWW »

Oops. Double post.
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RE: OMG, logistics making this game suck

Post by JWW »

ORIGINAL: jwarrenw13

ORIGINAL: pzgndr
ORIGINAL: Poliorcetes
Honestly this sucks... I have played strategy games (computer and board) for over 35 years now

+1

Over 45 years now for me. And yes, I understand logistics is important; I was an Asst Brigade S4 logistics officer in Germany in the late 80s. And I understand some (many?) players perversely enjoy micromanaging things. But some (many?) players like us just want to play strategy and wouldn't mind having a simplified logistics system option so playing the game does not seem like work. Been there, done that; I want to play if/when I get a chance.

Seriously, must we micromanage trucks, truckstations, gas stations, traffic lights, etc.? I still have enough gray hairs from brigade deployments to Grafenwoehr and Hohenfels moving vehicles back and forth using railcars, 30' trailers, 40' trailers, and road marches. Give me an in-game AI assistant or something to do that crap; I don't want to. Just saying...

Valid point. What unitin Germany? Germany 73-75 and 85-88. First time as an enlisted track driver, second time, after finishing college and lots of other adventures in the Army, as a PAO remf, both with 8th ID, Baumholder first time, 8th ID Hqs in Bad Kreuznach the second. Driving an M577 up on a rail car and off as a 19-year-old PFC was quite an adventure. Plus bonus deployment for REFORGER 84 as a company commander. I like the "micromanagement" but understand your view, too. It appears Vic will make us both happy with the new version and options regarding logistics. I argued from the start of the logistics argument for a basic/advanced mode, which appears to be what Vic is more or less doing.

Okay, I messed up somewhere, but what I was trying to post was my comment just above this sentence, lol.
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Frostwave
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RE: OMG, logistics making this game suck

Post by Frostwave »

"I hope so for your sake, Commander.
The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am."
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Malevolence
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RE: OMG, logistics making this game suck

Post by Malevolence »


[:D] roflmao

perfect
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RE: OMG, logistics making this game suck

Post by Malevolence »

pzgndr and jwarrenw13, thank you for your service!

Image
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RE: OMG, logistics making this game suck

Post by Malevolence »

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

Over 45 years now for me. And yes, I understand logistics is important; I was an Asst Brigade S4 logistics officer in Germany in the late 80s. And I understand some (many?) players perversely enjoy micromanaging things. But some (many?) players like us just want to play strategy and wouldn't mind having a simplified logistics system option so playing the game does not seem like work. Been there, done that; I want to play if/when I get a chance.

Seriously, must we micromanage trucks, truckstations, gas stations, traffic lights, etc.? I still have enough gray hairs from brigade deployments to Grafenwoehr and Hohenfels moving vehicles back and forth using railcars, 30' trailers, 40' trailers, and road marches. Give me an in-game AI assistant or something to do that crap; I don't want to. Just saying...

I think the (beta) game changes have made the logistic capacity better understood.

However, the subtext of (many of) these comments indicate players don't well understand the magnitude of cargo being moved on their LP's capacity.

I tried many times to suggest a more succinct, consolidated, and accounting-like reporting system. The details are there in the game, but they are spread across multiple view windows with wholly different formats, acronyms, and comparisons.

I've never raised a formation larger than Brigade so far. I keep those pretty simple--infantry and artillery. I add tanks as auxiliary.

That said, I'm still routinely surprised at the level of fuel and ammunition formations use. Replacement equipment (i.e. models), I think, remains a sore issue for everyone. It can be done, but it's not predictable as required without micro-management.

Assets and cities appear to have predicable and mostly fixed costs.

However, I know when I am building or upgrading in an SHQ city, everyone being supported by that SHQ needs to stop and wait. No other building or upgrading in any other cities.

I attempt to mitigate this issue by making sure each zone has organic generation of basic resources. Food, power, oil, and industry assets are ubiquitous. It helps, but never fully fixes the problem of the SHQ bottleneck.

There are at most 6 routes that can exit an SHQ. Once all routes are depleted, all deliveries stop. This is a key issue to watchlist.

It is for that reason, I've also suggested the ability to use control signs for truck, rail, and pull points separately--in order to facilitate up to 18 separated routes. However, no interest or support from the community.
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pzgndr
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RE: OMG, logistics making this game suck

Post by pzgndr »

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
With the pull system, there is no more micromanagement in the Beta.
With 1.04beta4 the hard to find edge cases may even be most fixed.

So the next release should be better. I am still not enthusiastic about micromanaging supply chains.
ORIGINAL: jwarrenw13
Valid point. What unit in Germany? Germany 73-75 and 85-88. ... Plus bonus deployment for REFORGER 84 as a company commander. I like the "micromanagement" but understand your view, too.

1AD in Bamberg 87-90. Played in REFORGER 90 (last one) after the Berlin Wall fell, as a mech inf company commander. GDP position on the Czech border was history by then. Fascinating time to be on the Frontiers of Freedom.
Bill Macon
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JWW
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RE: OMG, logistics making this game suck

Post by JWW »

ORIGINAL: pzgndr
ORIGINAL: zgrssd
With the pull system, there is no more micromanagement in the Beta.
With 1.04beta4 the hard to find edge cases may even be most fixed.

So the next release should be better. I am still not enthusiastic about micromanaging supply chains.
ORIGINAL: jwarrenw13
Valid point. What unit in Germany? Germany 73-75 and 85-88. ... Plus bonus deployment for REFORGER 84 as a company commander. I like the "micromanagement" but understand your view, too.

1AD in Bamberg 87-90. Played in REFORGER 90 (last one) after the Berlin Wall fell, as a mech inf company commander. GDP position on the Czech border was history by then. Fascinating time to be on the Frontiers of Freedom.

I remember walking with a patrol on the East German border in 88 right before I came home for the last time (disclaimer -- not my normal job; 8th ID cav had relieved the regular cav unit on the border temporarily, and I went on a patrol as PAO along with a couple of my guys taking pix and shooting video) and just wondering if that madness would ever end and thinking it can't go on forever. And then a year later everything started changing.
zgrssd
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RE: OMG, logistics making this game suck

Post by zgrssd »

ORIGINAL: pzgndr
ORIGINAL: zgrssd
With the pull system, there is no more micromanagement in the Beta.
With 1.04beta4 the hard to find edge cases may even be most fixed.

So the next release should be better. I am still not enthusiastic about micromanaging supply chains.
Again: In the next release there is no Micromanagement. There already is none in beta4.
You got logistics officers (automation) that are smart enough to allocate as little logistics points to asset crossings and towns as nessesary.
JWW
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RE: OMG, logistics making this game suck

Post by JWW »

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

ORIGINAL: pzgndr
ORIGINAL: zgrssd
With the pull system, there is no more micromanagement in the Beta.
With 1.04beta4 the hard to find edge cases may even be most fixed.

So the next release should be better. I am still not enthusiastic about micromanaging supply chains.
Again: In the next release there is no Micromanagement. There already is none in beta4.
You got logistics officers (automation) that are smart enough to allocate as little logistics points to asset crossings and towns as nessesary.

But, if we want to continue along that line, formation and unit commanders who are not smart enough to go where they need to go without personally directing them hex by hex. And governors who are not smart enough to build what needs to be built when and where it needs to be built without being ordered to. And, as Vic has noted, choices on how to play the log system.

Per Vic: "I repeat: You can still play the game exactly as you did before."

Once again, just a matter of preference, not a right or wrong way to do it.
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76mm
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RE: OMG, logistics making this game suck

Post by 76mm »

This all sounds promising to me, but will the manual be updated to reflect these changes? It has been hard enough for me to learn one logistics system, I hope that it won't be too hard to learn the second.
zgrssd
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RE: OMG, logistics making this game suck

Post by zgrssd »

ORIGINAL: 76mm

This all sounds promising to me, but will the manual be updated to reflect these changes? It has been hard enough for me to learn one logistics system, I hope that it won't be too hard to learn the second.
The automation System mostly replaces traffic signs. None of the underlying game rules changed.

Indeed my toutorial on logistics it is still 100% valid.
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