New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid

A military-oriented and sci-fi wargame, set on procedural planets with customizable factions and endless choices.

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zgrssd
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RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid

Post by zgrssd »

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

If it were up to me every group of models in a unit would have an operational readiness rate based on their level maintenance.

Should I suggest that too? [:'(]
I am pretty sure the game already has that.
It is just that units of the same model and same Veterancy levels are displayed as one bigger unit with averaged values.

ORIGINAL: jwarrenw13

At the same time, I do not understand why I can only play the courtesan stratagem on male characters. It is 2020. The courtesan needs to be available for all characters. [;)]
The game is somewhere around 8200. The "oldest profession" does not discriminate.
Plus, I heard that some women are into other women anyway. That makes it even wierder that the limit exists.
Tomn
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RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid

Post by Tomn »

Some of you folks are real bad at recognizing satire, huh?

The OP is mocking those who support the recent changes to logistics, guys. He doesn’t seriously believe the stated position, nor does anyone else.
zgrssd
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RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid

Post by zgrssd »

ORIGINAL: Tomn

Some of you folks are real bad at recognizing satire, huh?

The OP is mocking those who support the recent changes to logistics, guys. He doesn’t seriously believe the stated position, nor does anyone else.
Poe's Law applies:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law
Tomn
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RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid

Post by Tomn »

Check out his posts in the beta thread. Preeeetty sure Poe’s Law isn’t the issue here.
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Malevolence
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RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid

Post by Malevolence »

ORIGINAL: Tomn

Check out his posts in the beta thread. Preeeetty sure Poe’s Law isn’t the issue here.

Damn, then not surprised for my mistake. I lack a sense of humor.

-- also damn, I wasted my gif on the worst mini-game ever on this thread for no reason.
Nicht kleckern, sondern klotzen!

*Please remember all posts are made by a malevolent, autocratic despot whose rule is marked by unjust severity and arbitrary behavior. Your experiences may vary.
JWW
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RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid

Post by JWW »

ORIGINAL: Tomn

Some of you folks are real bad at recognizing satire, huh?

The OP is mocking those who support the recent changes to logistics, guys. He doesn’t seriously believe the stated position, nor does anyone else.

Except his post is exactly like many that are not satire, assuming it is, so if it is, very good satire. Doesn't change the truth of my reply though.
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willgamer
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RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid

Post by willgamer »

ORIGINAL: Tomn

Some of you folks are real bad at recognizing satire, huh?

The OP is mocking those who support the recent changes to logistics, guys. He doesn’t seriously believe the stated position, nor does anyone else.

WINNER!!!!! [:D]

[8D]
Rex Lex or Lex Rex?
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Malevolence
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RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid

Post by Malevolence »

ORIGINAL: willgamer

ORIGINAL: Tomn

Some of you folks are real bad at recognizing satire, huh?

The OP is mocking those who support the recent changes to logistics, guys. He doesn’t seriously believe the stated position, nor does anyone else.

WINNER!!!!! [:D]

[8D]

OR... you're just claiming that based on all the insightful feedback provided in response to your true feelings. [8D]

False flag operation (I will add that to the guerilla thread too)
Nicht kleckern, sondern klotzen!

*Please remember all posts are made by a malevolent, autocratic despot whose rule is marked by unjust severity and arbitrary behavior. Your experiences may vary.
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willgamer
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RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid

Post by willgamer »

Except his post is exactly like many that are not satire, assuming it is, so if it is, very good satire. Doesn't change the truth of my reply though.

You are too kind sir. [:)]

Thanks!

[8D]
Rex Lex or Lex Rex?
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willgamer
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RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid

Post by willgamer »

ORIGINAL: Malevolence

ORIGINAL: willgamer

ORIGINAL: Tomn

Some of you folks are real bad at recognizing satire, huh?

The OP is mocking those who support the recent changes to logistics, guys. He doesn’t seriously believe the stated position, nor does anyone else.

WINNER!!!!! [:D]

[8D]

OR... you're just claiming that based on all the insightful feedback provided in response to your true feelings. [8D]

False flag operation (I will add that to the guerilla thread too)
OR... you're just claiming that based on all the insightful feedback provided in response to your true feelings.

False flag operation (I will add that to the guerilla thread too)

Nope, just a simple Southerner "hold my beer" kind of guy. [:D]

p.s. Appreciate your thoughtful posts around here.... [:)]
Rex Lex or Lex Rex?
zgrssd
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RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid

Post by zgrssd »

ORIGINAL: Tomn

Check out his posts in the beta thread. Preeeetty sure Poe’s Law isn’t the issue here.
Poes Law applies to every text-only communication.

Expecting people to go through a posters entire posting history jsut to make sense of a single post, is no basis for communication.

"If you had known me for years" means "of course what I emitted was ambigious."
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Sieppo
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RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid

Post by Sieppo »

ORIGINAL: ZiggyMaca

If you water down the mechanics, make it less 'hardcore', there is no reason for the game to exist. Other games look better and are 3D, have better sound, character and model animation, voice acted scripted cinematics, and streamlined simple to understand in a few sittings mechanics. Shadow Empire would, if simplified, would compete with these games, and lose. Deep, complex systems, especially the logistics system, are the reason the game is great. If you don't like it, and want to change it, it will never be able to compete with other titles, and will be a failure. It would not appeal to the masses if changed, and would betray the following of players this has if Vic bends to the call for it to be the same as every other game. The amount of games that are 'hardcore' are so few between, it would be a crime to destroy this game for the people that are grateful for something different than the run of the mill mass market game. Please, let there be a game for the people that want deep complex strategy / wargame / hybrids. Please, I want Vic to make games with his personal vision, somewhat tempered by the call for certain modifications. I don't support the call to completely replace entire entwined backbone systems that some find 'hard', I want rather they learn to overcome the challenge, and concentrate on helping Vic to make the mechanics and rules easier to understand, not easier.

Yes yes yes [&o]! I've also been trying to say this for some time now.
> What is the hardest thing in the universe?
> A diamond?
> No. 500 machine gun men on a mountain.
Kriegsspieler
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RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid

Post by Kriegsspieler »

I'm going to divert this discussion slightly, and ask this. I like using the more complicated system of 1.04 -- it does feel like a Grigsby game -- but to be honest I still think I don't understand it very well. Especially I don't understand the information that is being presented.

Does anyone have a suggestion for a thread that explains how to interpret the available information and how to respond to it? Failing that, I'll just flounder around some more. I don't mind, really -- it's how I learn most games!
zgrssd
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RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid

Post by zgrssd »

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

ORIGINAL: ZiggyMaca

If you water down the mechanics, make it less 'hardcore', there is no reason for the game to exist. Other games look better and are 3D, have better sound, character and model animation, voice acted scripted cinematics, and streamlined simple to understand in a few sittings mechanics. Shadow Empire would, if simplified, would compete with these games, and lose. Deep, complex systems, especially the logistics system, are the reason the game is great. If you don't like it, and want to change it, it will never be able to compete with other titles, and will be a failure. It would not appeal to the masses if changed, and would betray the following of players this has if Vic bends to the call for it to be the same as every other game. The amount of games that are 'hardcore' are so few between, it would be a crime to destroy this game for the people that are grateful for something different than the run of the mill mass market game. Please, let there be a game for the people that want deep complex strategy / wargame / hybrids. Please, I want Vic to make games with his personal vision, somewhat tempered by the call for certain modifications. I don't support the call to completely replace entire entwined backbone systems that some find 'hard', I want rather they learn to overcome the challenge, and concentrate on helping Vic to make the mechanics and rules easier to understand, not easier.

Yes yes yes [&o]! I've also been trying to say this for some time now.
Nope. You are saying that even the little Automation we got in the Beta is bad. It leaves every level of detail in place.

I no universe is that comparable to the refrenced post of ripping out the entire System and replacing it with a single global "Logistics" resource:
ORIGINAL: rwbrown

You could just reduce the power of each logistics building and eliminate supply depots and make it a single empire wide total. That way everything that needs logistics consumes logistics from the SHQ, literally like everything else. Logistics should be a resource and there should be a quartermaster Director, consolidating the military and applied science divisions. That way you still have 8 in command.

This would also drastically reduce turn calculations I’m willing to bet.
zgrssd
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RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid

Post by zgrssd »

ORIGINAL: Kriegsspieler

I'm going to divert this discussion slightly, and ask this. I like using the more complicated system of 1.04 -- it does feel like a Grigsby game -- but to be honest I still think I don't understand it very well. Especially I don't understand the information that is being presented.

Does anyone have a suggestion for a thread that explains how to interpret the available information and how to respond to it? Failing that, I'll just flounder around some more. I don't mind, really -- it's how I learn most games!
I wrote some Toutorials:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4834257
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4843217

But for more help, we would need to know wich part precisely you got issues with.
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Sieppo
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RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid

Post by Sieppo »

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
ORIGINAL: Sieppo

ORIGINAL: ZiggyMaca

If you water down the mechanics, make it less 'hardcore', there is no reason for the game to exist. Other games look better and are 3D, have better sound, character and model animation, voice acted scripted cinematics, and streamlined simple to understand in a few sittings mechanics. Shadow Empire would, if simplified, would compete with these games, and lose. Deep, complex systems, especially the logistics system, are the reason the game is great. If you don't like it, and want to change it, it will never be able to compete with other titles, and will be a failure. It would not appeal to the masses if changed, and would betray the following of players this has if Vic bends to the call for it to be the same as every other game. The amount of games that are 'hardcore' are so few between, it would be a crime to destroy this game for the people that are grateful for something different than the run of the mill mass market game. Please, let there be a game for the people that want deep complex strategy / wargame / hybrids. Please, I want Vic to make games with his personal vision, somewhat tempered by the call for certain modifications. I don't support the call to completely replace entire entwined backbone systems that some find 'hard', I want rather they learn to overcome the challenge, and concentrate on helping Vic to make the mechanics and rules easier to understand, not easier.

Yes yes yes [&o]! I've also been trying to say this for some time now.
Nope. You are saying that even the little Automation we got in the Beta is bad. It leaves every level of detail in place.

I no universe is that comparable to the refrenced post of ripping out the entire System and replacing it with a single global "Logistics" resource:

This was a broader discussion. I don't use betas.
> What is the hardest thing in the universe?
> A diamond?
> No. 500 machine gun men on a mountain.
zgrssd
Posts: 5105
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:02 pm

RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid

Post by zgrssd »

ORIGINAL: Sieppo
ORIGINAL: zgrssd
ORIGINAL: Sieppo




Yes yes yes [&o]! I've also been trying to say this for some time now.
Nope. You are saying that even the little Automation we got in the Beta is bad. It leaves every level of detail in place.

I no universe is that comparable to the refrenced post of ripping out the entire System and replacing it with a single global "Logistics" resource:

This was a broader discussion. I don't use betas.
You made it part of the smaler one, when you claimed that reply to here was related to your position.

To my knowledge your position is "All Automation bad wrong fu" and "Germany had no logistics management on any level but the general staff in WW2".
Kriegsspieler
Posts: 264
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 9:15 pm

RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid

Post by Kriegsspieler »

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
I wrote some Toutorials:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4834257
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4843217

But for more help, we would need to know wich part precisely you got issues with.
Thanks -- for some reason, I had missed the second of those posts. That's exactly what I was missing. as usual in this game, the information you need is there, if you know where to find it.
Tomn
Posts: 148
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RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid

Post by Tomn »

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
Poes Law applies to every text-only communication.

Expecting people to go through a posters entire posting history jsut to make sense of a single post, is no basis for communication.

"If you had known me for years" means "of course what I emitted was ambigious."

You're absolutely right that miscommunication is rife in online-only communication. For example, I was probably unclear in my own post because what I meant to convey was "Yeah there is zero chance this guy isn't trolling, whatever it might look like to others."

Though personally I thought it was kinda obvious the guy was taking the piss even before I thought I recognized him. Just look at that absurd array of emoticons!



To go off on an tangent, I have to say I'm getting a little tired of the "anyone who wants to change the logistics system is a simpleton" argument. I mean, zgrssd literally wrote the book on logistics (or at least the War Room posts explaining them), and the majority of people I've seen in favor of the pull system understand the underlying logistical model perfectly well, they're just not a fan of the tedium in manually messing with it. What purpose is served by indirectly calling anyone in favor of change an idiot?

For that matter, why is there still a debate? The situation is done and dusted. The new pull system is in, getting refined, and not going away, it's possible to turn it off and play manually just like before, the underlying logistical system is unchanged, nobody's lost anything and people have only gained. So why are we still arguing about this?
balto
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RE: New logistics system is just a stop gap band-aid

Post by balto »

I feel like I am reading a forum on Steam.., all horse***t and no content. Man, what happened to Matrix.
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