Learning WITP vs AE, Fighter sweep insight

[wga8888]

have played many UCV and 2 pbem campaigns of WTIP. Jumped into AE sitting on comptuer via Guadacanal. I lack understanding on the nuance changes re Fighter Sweeps in AE.

Japanese CAP over Buna and Owen Stanley have be creating choas for my A20 & FB raids on Buna, Owen Stanley and naval targets, usually in the form of 8-12 Zeros which easily defeat my escorts (when they show up) then knock down bombers.

So I put together two groups of a 16xKittyhawk (12000) and 22xP39 (10000) fighter sweep vs Lae; thinking my superior numbers would offset IJN Zero/pilot advantage. I expected my 38 planes to fight together. My opponent a surprise as Lae cap was 25xCluades + 19xA6M2 + 16xA6M3.
---
AE had another suprise revelation for me. Instead of my flight of 38 planes as I would expect in WITP I have 5 unequal battles:
1] 25xCluades + 19xA6M2 + 16xA6M3 vs 13xKittyhawks
2] 22xCluades + 13xA6M2 + 14xA6M3 vs 16xP39
3] 20xCluades + 12xA6M2 + 13xA6M3 vs 2xKittyhawks
4] 18xCluades + 11xA6M2 + 12xA6M3 vs 2xP39
5] 26xCluades + 10xA6M2 + 12xA6M3 vs 3xP39

in all 1xClaude and 1xA6M2, 2xKittyhakw and 6xP39 destroyed in combat. Given combat over IJN Lae and 4 hexes from PM, counting operational loses, net score was 11xP39s (7 pilots), 6xKH (2) pilots, 2xClaude, 1xA6M3 (IJN pilot status unknown). At least my bombing of Owen Stanley by PM A20s and Australian B17s (mission naval primary for AM, then ground PM per previous advice) was not interfered with.
----------------
So between WITP and AE sweeps are different, massed WITP attacks transformed into uncoordinated piecemeal attacks. Likely different altitudes is now a factor.
----
A P39 maneuverability degraded at 11K+, perhaps 10K is too high. In WITP were is a hole in AA defense between 6-8K I think; likely close. P39s are at a less disadvantage at low altitudes; but other older Grigsby games, concepts of bounce, top escort etc are stuck in my head.
----
Any insight is appreciated.
----
I almost always play pbem so opponent can surprise me with changing tactics, ambushes; and I can assume to do the same. This turn should I do the obvious, not obvious, radical, unexpected high risk/high reward, of conservative play? I keep hearing Vizzini's battle of wits from THE PRINCESS BRIDE.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZSx3zNZOaU

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: wga8888

have played many UCV and 2 pbem campaigns of WTIP. Jumped into AE sitting on comptuer via Guadacanal. I lack understanding on the nuance changes re Fighter Sweeps in AE.

Japanese CAP over Buna and Owen Stanley have be creating choas for my A20 & FB raids on Buna, Owen Stanley and naval targets, usually in the form of 8-12 Zeros which easily defeat my escorts (when they show up) then knock down bombers.

So I put together two groups of a 16xKittyhawk (12000) and 22xP39 (10000) fighter sweep vs Lae; thinking my superior numbers would offset IJN Zero/pilot advantage. I expected my 38 planes to fight together. My opponent a surprise as Lae cap was 25xCluades + 19xA6M2 + 16xA6M3.
---
AE had another suprise revelation for me. Instead of my flight of 38 planes as I would expect in WITP I have 5 unequal battles:
1] 25xCluades + 19xA6M2 + 16xA6M3 vs 13xKittyhawks
2] 22xCluades + 13xA6M2 + 14xA6M3 vs 16xP39
3] 20xCluades + 12xA6M2 + 13xA6M3 vs 2xKittyhawks
4] 18xCluades + 11xA6M2 + 12xA6M3 vs 2xP39
5] 26xCluades + 10xA6M2 + 12xA6M3 vs 3xP39

in all 1xClaude and 1xA6M2, 2xKittyhakw and 6xP39 destroyed in combat. Given combat over IJN Lae and 4 hexes from PM, counting operational loses, net score was 11xP39s (7 pilots), 6xKH (2) pilots, 2xClaude, 1xA6M3 (IJN pilot status unknown). At least my bombing of Owen Stanley by PM A20s and Australian B17s (mission naval primary for AM, then ground PM per previous advice) was not interfered with.
----------------
So between WITP and AE sweeps are different, massed WITP attacks transformed into uncoordinated piecemeal attacks. Likely different altitudes is now a factor.
----
A P39 maneuverability degraded at 11K+, perhaps 10K is too high. In WITP were is a hole in AA defense between 6-8K I think; likely close. P39s are at a less disadvantage at low altitudes; but other older Grigsby games, concepts of bounce, top escort etc are stuck in my head.
----
Any insight is appreciated.
----
I almost always play pbem so opponent can surprise me with changing tactics, ambushes; and I can assume to do the same. This turn should I do the obvious, not obvious, radical, unexpected high risk/high reward, of conservative play? I keep hearing Vizzini's battle of wits from THE PRINCESS BRIDE.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZSx3zNZOaU

Escorts are always at a disadvantage as they are tied to the bombers and have less freedom to maneuver.
The bounce is given lots of bonus in air combat - some would say too much. Speed is also a big bonus, after the bounce has occurred. Speed is what allowed later Allied aircraft to overcome the Zero advantage in maneuverability.

[Bo Rearguard]

ORIGINAL: wga8888


So between WITP and AE sweeps are different, massed WITP attacks transformed into uncoordinated piecemeal attacks. Likely different altitudes is now a factor.
----
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZSx3zNZOaU

You might want to read LoBaron's Air Coordination Guide if you haven't already. It talks about the big changes in air raids made between WITP and AE.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2382494

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Look back at the original WitP: These battles would not happen that way. They would nearly always end in a big furball that decides the outcome
of the air war in a specific area in one day with brutal results for the side at disadvantage, which, in RL would have taken several weeks
to yield a comparable result.

Even under optimal conditions this attack would arrive in separate raids, one after another, sometimes coordinated, sometimes not.
Escorts would engage, often drawn away from bombers, rejoin formations after a pitched battle, or returning alone after battle damage,
CAP would sometimes get into a position to engage unprotected parts of the bomber formations, only to be jumped by the escorts the
next time the try the same.
All this would take place over an extended time, sometimes hours of A2A battles.

[wga8888]

thanks. Learning the changes between WITP and AE is the objective. I can learn indirectly via pbem but would be a disservice to my opponent to not play to my best ability.

[Nomad]

Two items you did not show any info on.

1. Pilot quality

2. Air Leader qualities.

These make a large difference in air battle outcomes.

[wga8888]

The outcome of the battle is predictable when 2 inferior planes are attacked by 40 superior planes; the latter with superior pilot, and assumed bounce. My question is why my two fighter squadrons flying together from the same base were broken into 5 separate piecemeal attacks. And can this be avoided in teh future else the concept of attacking a Japanese base is futile. With 6+ years of WITP experience vs human opposition, I did not expect my raid segmented.

its mid 1942, all Allied pilots are base {the USN carrier pilots are better but not involved in New Guinea).
a assume the Squadron leader's parameters of Leaderhship, Air and Agression are more important in the actual attack.

Its a learning process. Like all more recent Grigsby game, the manual only covers concepts, not details.

[RangerJoe]

If you read the guide, enlightenment may come upon you.

[Ambassador]

WitP-AE is a learning process. You may play this game for ten years, and still learn something new.

Like said above, the way the old WitP (and UV) managed air raids was unrealistic and gave totally lopsided results. Check LoBaron's guide, and do some more reading. In short, AE's model is that gigantic raids won't happen, under most circumstances. Especially not enormous sweeps.

Moreover, in '42 as the Allies, you're better off not going full offense. Try to whittle down the enemy fighters. Favor defense over offense, you have neither enough good planes, nor enough good pilots. Train a lot, get some stocks of modern planes, and in the mean time grind the enemy down. But with better planes and better pilots in the IJN/IJA at start, doing your battles over the Japanese bases is asking for disproportionate losses.

[wga8888]

I did read the guide yesterday, it does explain and justify the differences. WITP was a game of two halves; all IJN in the beginning years, all USN in th elatter part. In AE I am playing a 4 month Guadalcanal scenario, likely too short for training to be effective. My P39s groups experience goes up with battle-even ugly ones, replacement pilots are not any worse than what I lose. Ideally he would be attacking my bases where I do better as defender and recover most of my pilots; but he stopped doing; his damaged planes turned into operational losses to offset the kills of my planes..

In WITP, pilots could spend a year in training on the west coast and only perhaps go up 1 experience point. Any stranfing, bombing, mission on the map raised experiece one point. Usually IJN player had a house rule that one cannot attack unoccupied bases for experience. Only affects allies as their planes lack range to reach a IJN base. {Ironically by 1944 opponent had 1000 planes a day attacking a remote Chinese base with 10 squads to build up experience to negate his pilot quality lose as they 'were not unoccupied bases'. I would have disbanded the LCU if I could.

[Platoonist]

ORIGINAL: wga8888


In WITP, pilots could spend a year in training on the west coast and only perhaps go up 1 experience point. Any stranfing, bombing, mission on the map raised experiece one point. Usually IJN player had a house rule that one cannot attack unoccupied bases for experience. Only affects allies as their planes lack range to reach a IJN base. {Ironically by 1944 opponent had 1000 planes a day attacking a remote Chinese base with 10 squads to build up experience to negate his pilot quality lose as they 'were not unoccupied bases'. I would have disbanded the LCU if I could.

Boy, your memory is far superior to mine. About all I recall of WITP all these years later is the numerous map inaccuracies, and the way the AI's IJN ships were always showing smoke because they didn't put in for maintenance.

[RangerJoe]

Stay on defence in the Port Moresby area. Attack any units in your own hex, or any adjacent hex.

[Yaab]

wga8888, read this thread

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3734794

I dont think your Warhawks and Airacobras can arrive together as their cruise speeds are different. I would stick with one fighter model doing the sweeps to maximise their chance of arrving over target as one raid.