Industry

[Andy Mac]

Guys I have a problem

1st Games a Japan taken 3 major industry bases and they have all been total nuked this is a game breaker not sure what I am doing wrong

HK I took it via a shock attack

2nd base a series of deliverate attacks

Singapore now with 3 deliberate attacks in a row supported by air and in all three cases Industry is totalled and I mean 0 0 0 0 0

[KenchiSulla]

Hong Kong and Singapore is annoying but not a game breaker. Palembang would be... Did you allow for long prep times on the allied side? Did he have a lot of combat engineers?

You might just be very unlucky

[Andy Mac]

Feb 7th in Singapore and yes he a lot of Engineers not sure he had many Combat Engineers though

Other 2 bases less so it was just that it was a TOTAL wipeout and I do mean total all industry in all categories reduced to nil

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Guys I have a problem

1st Games a Japan taken 3 major industry bases and they have all been total nuked this is a game breaker not sure what I am doing wrong

HK I took it via a shock attack

2nd base a series of deliverate attacks

Singapore now with 3 deliberate attacks in a row supported by air and in all three cases Industry is totalled and I mean 0 0 0 0 0

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2878790

Section B3

"Upon base capture by the enemy, the amount of damage suffered by these facilities is influenced by the quantity of defending surviving engineers present at the changeover"

Kill the engineers if you can.

FWIW, HK and Singers you can live with being damaged. Palembang, Balikpapan and the other big oil centres are what should really worry you.

[RangerJoe]

Shock attacks also seem to make the damage worse from what I have seen.

[Andy Mac]

The shock attack is what I blamed HK on

I thought it was bad luck at the second base

Singapore was a kick in the teeth

As Japan its not worth repairing industry that far forward you never get it back by the wars end

[RangerJoe]

It should be worth repairing the HI as it also has other uses than supply.

[Q-Ball]

I would repair the HI in Singapore and the Repair Yard there at a minimum. Even if it's break-even on the supply, having supply production in Singers is worth it...that will save fuel in transport from Japan

[Andy Mac]

The loss of Oil and repair yards hurts but its the lack of understanding as to why it happened that's the problem if it happens at Palembang the economy will implode

[Andy Mac]

Sinapore falls and yet again my industry in nuked - 3rde time this has happened

HI 0/70
LI 0.80
Repair Yard 0/50
Arms 0/60
Resource 0/160

3rd time this has happened


Ground combat at Singapore (50,84)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 126260 troops, 1366 guns, 638 vehicles, Assault Value = 2685

Defending force 54240 troops, 684 guns, 672 vehicles, Assault Value = 473

Japanese engineers reduce fortifications to 0

Japanese adjusted assault: 2297

Allied adjusted defense: 737

Japanese assault odds: 3 to 1 (fort level 0)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Singapore !!!

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(+), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker: disruption(-)

Japanese ground losses:
2394 casualties reported
Squads: 29 destroyed, 190 disabled
Non Combat: 2 destroyed, 39 disabled
Engineers: 5 destroyed, 32 disabled
Guns lost 38 (2 destroyed, 36 disabled)
Vehicles lost 14 (3 destroyed, 11 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
73080 casualties reported
Squads: 739 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 2381 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 421 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 752 (752 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Vehicles lost 994 (994 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Units destroyed 32

Assaulting units:
3rd Special Assault Division
1st Special Assault Division
5th Division
2nd Special Assault Division
Imperial Guards Division
33rd Division
4th Ind. Engineer Regiment
15th Guards Regiment
23rd Ind. Engineer Regiment
1st RTA Division
12th Engineer Regiment
15th Ind. Engineer Regiment
14th Tank Regiment
6th RTA Division
1st Tank Regiment
80th Division
114th Infantry Regiment
56th Infantry Regiment
5th Amphibious Brigade
7th Guards Division
25th Army
18th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
3rd Medium Field Artillery Regiment
3rd Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment

Defending units:
11th Indian Division
22nd Australian Brigade
27th Australian Brigade
12th Indian Brigade
Malaya Army
113th RAF Base Force
FMSV Brigade
1st Hyderabad Battalion
2/17 Dogra Battalion
22nd Indian Mountain Gun Regiment
24th NZ Pioneer Coy
3rd SSVF Battalion
3rd HK&S Light AA Regiment
1st Mysore Battalion
1st HK&S Heavy AA Regiment
2nd Loyal Battalion
Singapore Base Force
2nd HK&S Heavy AA Regiment
Singapore Fortress
III Indian Corps
3rd ISF Base Force
109th RN Base Force
8th Indian Brigade
1st Indian Heavy AA Regiment
109th RAF Base Force
3rd Heavy AA Regiment
2nd ISF Base Force
111th RAF Base Force
Malayan Air Wing
112th RAF Base Force
110th RAF Base Force
5th Field Regiment

[Andy Mac]

Kwangchowan

LI 0/240
Resources 0/660
Repair 0/20
VA 0/6
Oil 0/100
Refinery 0/60
HI 0/20

[Andy Mac]

HK

HI 0/111
LI0/421
RY 0/56
RS 0/12
Arms 0/61
VA 0/16

manila was untouched so out of 4 sites captured 1 the smallest !! Was ok

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

The loss of Oil and repair yards hurts but its the lack of understanding as to why it happened that's the problem if it happens at Palembang the economy will implode

So not quite.

It is a serious loss, but it is well within the margins of the IJ economy to recover.

What it does do is require serious budgeting of supply/fuel usage for combat operations.

As a side note, I agree with your sentiment - industry destruction does seem very binary in that damage in either fairly trivial or complete.

[Alamander]

Contrary to popular opinion, I believe the number of engineers present has a major effect on the likelihood of industry destruction. Notice in your combat report: " Engineers: 421 destroyed, 0 disabled." That is a big number, and in my experience, almost certain to produce some destruction of assets. Preventing the base forces from northern Malaysia from reaching Singapore is probably just as helpful, if not moreso, than preventing the Indian and Sihk units from reaching Singapore, or destroying these base forces peacemeal before they can reach Singapore. When I have been able to do this, I have prevented significant damage to Singapore's facitilites. When I have not, I have experienced losses to industry.

The real question is whether disabled engineers contribute to the die roll and whether disruption, supply levels, and fatigue have any effect on their ability to destroy economic assets.

Whatever the case, you can expect as Japan to spend 100K-150K supply rebuilding crucial infrastructure in almost every game (in addition to the 150 oil wells at Miri that begin disabled). Rebuilding the shipyard and heavy industry at Singapore will not break the bank, provided other important economic assets are taken with limited damage. As others have mentioned, Balikpapan and Palembang are really the most important, and complete destruction at Palembang is catastrophic to the Japanese war effort. You should be able to recover from anything else.

[RangerJoe]

From mindmessing

As posted elsewhere

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2878790

Section 3B

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.a ... 1&#4855350

From Alfred

Production at all industrial enterprises can be damaged by several means:

• City attack air mission (see pages 151-152 of the manual)
• Naval bombardment task force
• Upon base capture by the enemy, the amount of damage suffered by these facilities is influenced by the quantity of defending surviving engineers present at the changeover

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2878790

It appears that the engineers can't be disabled since they would not then be defending. So grinding the enemy down instead of a quick victory may be the key if a lot of units with engineers make it to the base.

[Alamander]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

It appears that the engineers can't be disabled since they would not then be defending. So grinding the enemy down instead of a quick victory may be the key if a lot of units with engineers make it to the base.

If you have played Andymac's Ironman scenarios as Japan, you probably realize how important the quantity of engineers is when the game determines whether inudustry is destroyed or not. It is very difficult to take places like Miri without large-scale destruction. In my limited, completely anecdotal experience, from these scenarios, disabling engineer devices and possibly the consequent disruption in the the base forces does seem to help limit destruction. Again, though, this is entirely anecdotal and based only a couple experiences with the Ironman scenarios. The only time in Ironman when I was able to avoid the complete destruction of Miri's oilfields was when I heavily bombed the base with Netties, deliberately trying to disable and disrupt engineer devices.

[GetAssista]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac
Kwangchowan

LI 0/240
Resources 0/660
Repair 0/20
VA 0/6
Oil 0/100
Refinery 0/60
HI 0/20

Woah, where this sweet goodness came from? It's a pretty generous mod I say, so it is nothing special if you get some of your conquests trashed.

Anyway, large battles have a tendency of swinging industry damage to the extremes, either zero or all trashed. Manual is not telling you all what's there, including bugs. When I replayed San Francisco capture for a couple dozen times in the AI game (huuge battle), I never got partial industry damage, it was always either zero or all trashed. Tells you something about the random number generators.

3/4 is nothing special. Singers is always a toss up in all games since it is the inevitable large battle. Just man up and wait until when it really matters - in Palembang and Balikpapan. If those end up trashed too you can let loose your rng blaming

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

From mindmessing

As posted elsewhere

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2878790

Section 3B

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.a ... 69&mpage=1?

From Alfred

Production at all industrial enterprises can be damaged by several means:

• City attack air mission (see pages 151-152 of the manual)
• Naval bombardment task force
• Upon base capture by the enemy, the amount of damage suffered by these facilities is influenced by the quantity of defending surviving engineers present at the changeover

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2878790

It appears that the engineers can't be disabled since they would not then be defending. So grinding the enemy down instead of a quick victory may be the key if a lot of units with engineers make it to the base.

During my naval bombardments and bombings, engineers are more likely to die than combat squads. Grinding is not limited to grunts.

[Yaab]

Contrary to popular opinion, I believe the number of engineers present has a major effect on the likelihood of industry destruction. Notice in your combat report: " Engineers: 421 destroyed, 0 disabled." That is a big number, and in my experience, almost certain to produce some destruction of assets. Preventing the base forces from northern Malaysia from reaching Singapore is probably just as helpful, if not moreso, than preventing the Indian and Sihk units from reaching Singapore, or destroying these base forces peacemeal before they can reach Singapore. When I have been able to do this, I have prevented significant damage to Singapore's facitilites. When I have not, I have experienced losses to industry.

The real question is whether disabled engineers contribute to the die roll and whether disruption, supply levels, and fatigue have any effect on their ability to destroy economic assets.

Whatever the case, you can expect as Japan to spend 100K-150K supply rebuilding crucial infrastructure in almost every game (in addition to the 150 oil wells at Miri that begin disabled). Rebuilding the shipyard and heavy industry at Singapore will not break the bank, provided other important economic assets are taken with limited damage. As others have mentioned, Balikpapan and Palembang are really the most important, and complete destruction at Palembang is catastrophic to the Japanese war effort. You should be able to recover from anything else.

Thread resurrection.

So it seems, when you capture a base, the NUMBER of remaining engineer squads decides the amount of industry damage. Provided this premise is true, how do you destroy enemy eng squads druing siege? The only pattern I noticed is that when tanks attack a base, enemy combat engineers seems to be involved in anti-tank actions.

Also, if you arrive at an enemy-held base, conduct a shock attack, have luck at achieving high AV/forts reduction, drop several levels of forts and now you actually capture the base BEFORE you have a chance to grind enemy engineers in combat.

[RangerJoe]

Bombard everything into insensibility!