Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A)

[Alamander]

ORIGINAL: GetAssista


Why would you want to waste Chinese supply on Burma roads for India protection? In my book Burma is usually a lost cause and a place for delaying action at most to let mobile Chinese march into India.

This is sort of what I am saying: not a festung at Lashio, but a holding action in the jungle to keep the trail to Lashio open for as long as possible and then a retreat into India with the 1st Burma as the rear-guard to keep the Brit 18th and the Aussie units from getting too beat up.

You can park the 1st Burma in Rangoon for a little while to prevent easy capture by one of the broken down 58th div. regiments, and then strategic move them out of there to the dot base in the jungle and then move to hold the line at the edge of the jungle. Just be sure to get out of Rangoon in time. Mike did a very nice job of this in our current game. He strat-moved the 1st Burma out of Rangoon, literally the day before I was about to cut them off with para-drops and movement across the river into Burma.

The Brit 18th and the Aussies can hold Lashio and and then race for the Indian border once the 1st Burma gets into too much trouble. I would love it if my opponent built a fortress at Lahio and had the whole of the Burmese force drawing supply from China. In fact, I would probably just leave them there to keep drawing supply through all of 1942.

[RangerJoe]

Using your supply draw, you could end up with lots of supply at Lashio. Then you can release it and some of it will make it to the Chinese border. Maybe even by sending the Burma HQ there and then move HQs into Paoshan. Just have the next Chinese bases stockpile supplies so Paoshan does not fill up with Chinese supplies.

[Alamander]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Using your supply draw, you could end up with lots of supply at Lashio. Then you can release it and some of it will make it to the Chinese border. Maybe even by sending the Burma HQ there and then move HQs into Paoshan. Just have the next Chinese bases stockpile supplies so Paoshan does not fill up with Chinese supplies.

Yeah... keep the flow of supplies open as long as possible, but don't reverse the flow to have some festival, or festung, or some such at Lashio.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

How do you plan to supply it when Rangoon is gone?

Hopefully supplies from Paoshan will filter there. The slightly better route is to air drop supplies into Bhamo or Lashio itself. Lashio is almost impossible to LRCAP to stop transports.

...

If Japan goes for an amphibious invasion of India, putting the KB in the Bay of Bengal, I will of course invade the Marianas & the Jimas no matter what I have to steam thru to get there. I will have some restricted units prepping for this from day 1 too.

Why would you want to waste Chinese supply on Burma roads for India protection? In my book Burma is usually a lost cause and a place for delaying action at most to let mobile Chinese march into India. After that India is protected nicely from that direction by terrain and lack of supply on the Burma side, as well as RR fast reaction possibilities on the India side. Hardly any JFB ventures into India from here, they all choose amphibious route and for a good reason.
Edit: I remember some AARs where Allies overcommited to Burma defense only to be encircled a bit later by Calcutta landings and massacred.

IMO Japan is perfectly capable of letting you into Marianas in mid 42 and then isolating and squishing you in late 42 when they are back from Bengal. They still have a lot of time and a capable carrier arm, while you don't. Not to mention distances to home bases.

I am not protecting Burma, I am protecting Lashio, which in turn protects China.

I want to encourage an amphibious operation into India.

I am not committed to a Burma defense. I am committed to a China defense. I don't plan on letting my Lashio defense get encircled, in fact I plan on having them retreat to Paoshan primarily and China.

I have squished my fair share of early Allied aggressiveness in the Pacific or Kuriles in 1942. And if I was trying to hold onto that territory then what you say is true. That is not my purpose.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: Encircled


As I'm on the verge of losing Chungking in Nov 1942 in my game v Rader, I can heartily agree with this! [:)]

Yes, China gets very difficult after July 1942. Sooner if Japan commits all their tank regiments and artillery there aggressively from Manchuko.

Do you still control the Kunming to Paoshan mountain area?

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: Alamander

This is sort of what I am saying: not a festung at Lashio, but a holding action in the jungle to keep the trail to Lashio open for as long as possible and then a retreat into India with the 1st Burma as the rear-guard to keep the Brit 18th and the Aussie units from getting too beat up.

You can park the 1st Burma in Rangoon for a little while to prevent easy capture by one of the broken down 58th div. regiments, and then strategic move them out of there to the dot base in the jungle and then move to hold the line at the edge of the jungle. Just be sure to get out of Rangoon in time. Mike did a very nice job of this in our current game. He strat-moved the 1st Burma out of Rangoon, literally the day before I was about to cut them off with para-drops and movement across the river into Burma.

The Brit 18th and the Aussies can hold Lashio and and then race for the Indian border once the 1st Burma gets into too much trouble. I would love it if my opponent built a fortress at Lahio and had the whole of the Burmese force drawing supply from China. In fact, I would probably just leave them there to keep drawing supply through all of 1942.

That is fine advice, and there are a lot of ways to solve problems in this game.

The 18th and Aussies won't be going to Burma. At least not in 1942.

If my fortress Lashio is bypassed, and the road to Paoshan remains open from Lashio and Ledo stays in Allied hands I will be very happy too.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Alamander

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Using your supply draw, you could end up with lots of supply at Lashio. Then you can release it and some of it will make it to the Chinese border. Maybe even by sending the Burma HQ there and then move HQs into Paoshan. Just have the next Chinese bases stockpile supplies so Paoshan does not fill up with Chinese supplies.

Yeah... keep the flow of supplies open as long as possible, but don't reverse the flow to have some festival, or festung, or some such at Lashio.

Stockpile supplies at Paoshan, max draw at Lashio - maybe even with an HQ there. Maybe even an air HQ for air support as well. Then, once Lashio is full, stockpile the supplies at Lashio, fill all bases leading to Lashio with supplies, then stockpile supplies at all non-Chinese bases leading to Lashio and then unstockpile supplies at Paoshan and increase the demand while all Chinese bases leading to Paoshan are stockpiling supplies. Rinse and repeat as long as you can.

It might only be a few thousand more supplies that way but every bit helps - and they are not air lifted with those attendant problems.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Using your supply draw, you could end up with lots of supply at Lashio. Then you can release it and some of it will make it to the Chinese border. Maybe even by sending the Burma HQ there and then move HQs into Paoshan. Just have the next Chinese bases stockpile supplies so Paoshan does not fill up with Chinese supplies.

Sending supply from Lashio to Paoshan (or the other way) is very efficient by Chinese standards, only 1% less efficient than sending supplies from Paoshan to Tsuyung. Lashio does have a max draw of 500 supplies currently. with Paoshan and Tsuyung 300, and Kunming 400. Kweiyang has a very generous supply draw...but I don't want to be feeding it from Paoshan.

Burma Command is just a HQc, but it will go to Lashio too.

I plan on really working the stockpile and supply settings in this theater.

[GetAssista]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe
I am not protecting Burma, I am protecting Lashio, which in turn protects China.

I want to encourage an amphibious operation into India.

I am not committed to a Burma defense. I am committed to a China defense. I don't plan on letting my Lashio defense get encircled, in fact I plan on having them retreat to Paoshan primarily and China.

Ok, understood. Then it begs a different question. Bear with me please, this is the last time I would touch this topic

Why would you defend China so forward? You make it exceedingly easy for Japan to bring supplies to your location via RR while at the same time you would still waste your China supply traversing the dirt roads. There is nothing important in Lashio specifically to guard, you mentioned the danger of retreat into the trap yourself, and neither Lashio nor Myitkyina help China with supply in any way. Hardly any JFB goes into China from Burma direction because of those supply issues and the need for unrestricted units. If you want to keep Japan from this venture anyway, just dig in around Paoshan with all the mountains, river crossings and shorter supply routes. Not to mention Lashio needs unrestricted units you can use elsewhere (if you have the common pp houserule in place), while Paoshan you can defend with the host of restricted Chinese.

Edit: Note, it's all OK if you just want to have a battle in the unconventional location as the main reason, and want to see how Japan will deal with it

[Encircled]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: Encircled


As I'm on the verge of losing Chungking in Nov 1942 in my game v Rader, I can heartily agree with this! [:)]

Yes, China gets very difficult after July 1942. Sooner if Japan commits all their tank regiments and artillery there aggressively from Manchuko.

Do you still control the Kunming to Paoshan mountain area?

Got some supplied Chinese units blocking the road, and some Chindits and Chinese trying to retake Paoshan, but I'm not confident that I'll be able to do that and hold.

[Alamander]

ORIGINAL: GetAssista


There is nothing important in Lashio specifically to guard, you mentioned the danger of retreat into the trap yourself, and neither Lashio nor Myitkyina help China with supply in any way. Hardly any JFB goes into China from Burma direction because of those supply issues and the need for unrestricted units. If you want to keep Japan from this venture anyway, just dig in around Paoshan with all the mountains, river crossings and shorter supply routes. Not to mention Lashio needs unrestricted units you can use elsewhere (if you have the common pp houserule in place), while Paoshan you can defend with the host of restricted Chinese.

Edit: Note, it's all OK if you just want to have a battle in the unconventional location as the main reason, and want to see how Japan will deal with it

I don't really follow the logic either. If Japan wants to wade into the mountains of western China to dislodge some dug-in Chinese corps in mountainous terrain with some of their unrestricted divisions, I say, as the allies, 'More power to Ya, buddy. I'm Sure glad those unrestricted divisions are not somewhere else, anywhere else... actually."

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

Why would you defend China so forward? You make it exceedingly easy for Japan to bring supplies to your location via RR while at the same time you would still waste your China supply traversing the dirt roads. There is nothing important in Lashio specifically to guard, you mentioned the danger of retreat into the trap yourself, and neither Lashio nor Myitkyina help China with supply in any way. Hardly any JFB goes into China from Burma direction because of those supply issues and the need for unrestricted units. If you want to keep Japan from this venture anyway, just dig in around Paoshan with all the mountains, river crossings and shorter supply routes. Not to mention Lashio needs unrestricted units you can use elsewhere (if you have the common pp houserule in place), while Paoshan you can defend with the host of restricted Chinese.

Edit: Note, it's all OK if you just want to have a battle in the unconventional location as the main reason, and want to see how Japan will deal with it

For a variety of reasons. Lashio is x3 terrain, Rangoon on x2. The troops will have a bit longer to prepare for a Lashio defense and are immune to naval bombardment and aerial bombing is less effective. I want to pull IJA troops to Lashio and waste more time, if not surrounded moves to cut the road to the south are possible and also are possible from China. Lashio cannot really be interdicted with LRCAP.

It is almost impossible to defend Rangoon and retreat. It simply isn't as good a place to fight as Lashio. To encircle Lashio IJA has to go off road, or move up to Myitkyina and move south.

It gives me a fourth base build supplies in for the Mountain hold, it's runway can be built up if practicable and Hong Kong is vulnerable in Oct of 1942. It provides another vector to attack Magwe/Rangoon, Bangkok. It is only 6 hexes from Imphal, which is the closest possible practical base to fly supplies in that can reach Paoshan.

So that is some of the thinking, and a lot of it is situational plans inside of plans and certainly a lot won't work out. For example, won't be nearly as effective if Ledo falls and Japan is committed to a maximum India first strategy but it might be if it buys a month slowing down an Indian push. Looking to buy time and exploit whatever I can.

And if I can hold the mountains, think what can be done in 1943 and beyond. The Chinese can infiltrate south and threaten the Hanoi Lang Son rail line. One of my game goals is to stretch Japan's perimeter to the breaking point. Combined with a Tavoy area landing it all becomes a huge reverse trap.

I get that the opportunity cost is high, but the payoff can be big too. Certainly it beats losing all of China which is a factor in every Japanese AV I believe.

[RangerJoe]

Even if your Chinese retreat to the mountains but can get more supplies will be a big help.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: Alamander

I don't really follow the logic either. If Japan wants to wade into the mountains of western China to dislodge some dug-in Chinese corps in mountainous terrain with some of their unrestricted divisions, I say, as the allies, 'More power to Ya, buddy. I'm Sure glad those unrestricted divisions are not somewhere else, anywhere else... actually."

That is not what I am trying to accomplish.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Encircled

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Hopefully supplies from Paoshan will filter there. The slightly better route is to air drop supplies into Bhamo or Lashio itself. Lashio is almost impossible to LRCAP to stop transports.

...

If Japan goes for an amphibious invasion of India, putting the KB in the Bay of Bengal, I will of course invade the Marianas & the Jimas no matter what I have to steam thru to get there. I will have some restricted units prepping for this from day 1 too.

Why would you want to waste Chinese supply on Burma roads for India protection? In my book Burma is usually a lost cause and a place for delaying action at most to let mobile Chinese march into India. After that India is protected nicely from that direction by terrain and lack of supply on the Burma side, as well as RR fast reaction possibilities on the India side. Hardly any JFB ventures into India from here, they all choose amphibious route and for a good reason.
Edit: I remember some AARs where Allies overcommited to Burma defense only to be encircled a bit later by Calcutta landings and massacred.

IMO Japan is perfectly capable of letting you into Marianas in mid 42 and then isolating and squishing you in late 42 when they are back from Bengal. They still have a lot of time and a capable carrier arm, while you don't. Not to mention distances to home bases.

Its a balance I think

I'm too cautius in my current game, because I was too aggressive in the game before that!

But it depends entirely in 1942 on what the Japanese player is aiming for.

If he's going for a 1942 win, then he's got to knock out China or Oz or India and sink the US carriers.

Surviving 1942 is the aim of all Allied players first and foremost I feel.

knocking out China AND India AND sink the US carriers has resulted in a 6.5:1 in my ongoing game and you only need a 4:1, way easier to achieve and Allied players often tend to forget this.

[Yaab]

That is why holding Bombay is crucial. It is the biggest port in India, thus all Indian surplus of supply/fuel/res piles up there from the start.

[RangerJoe]

Karachi might be easier to hold.

[Lowpe]

Pretty much sure almost all my starting PP are going to be used in China on Dec 7 preturn.

Here is a look at the highest AV unit of the Chinese Infantry. Some units have Fatigue at 60. Disablements often are 50%. This makes moving a killing experience.

There is 23,000 AV at start in China, but at 35 morale and 35 experience and supply constrained, plus many infantry units are sadly lacking in support squads which hampers off base defense. Guns are in short supply.

I am convinced that my grasp of supply mechanics will allow me to send supply where I want it for the most part. The supply graphic shows against the AI I can increase supply 40K thru the first 9 turns of the game. Against a player it won't be as strong...Hong Kong supply is counted in this number, but I didn't ship or fly in any supply...simply thru local supply and manipulating stockpile & demand at bases. My test isn't ideal yet, as supply was getting destroyed by IJAAF air raids on some bases notably Changsha.

So, with a decent grasp on supply and several ideas on how to get more there, then, getting the Chinese Army into fighting trim is the next area to work on. The establishment of recovery areas is extremely important and this means changing leaders, and I expect to spend almost all the starting 100 PP doing this on day one. Morale, experience, disablements, and fatigue, support squads (selectively) need improvement fast.

A recovery area will further be broken down into rear area (where supply is stockpiled) and combat area which could be one hex away from enemy units.

High Inspirations and High Admin skill leaders are in great demand, and will be prioritized. I have identified the top 15 large combat unit leaders and they will be re-assigned to make hopefully a great impact on the Chinese Army.







FYI the Chinese training level is 45.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Karachi might be easier to hold.

One of the best ways to secure India is to put up a hell of a fight in China. Even if China is ultimately lost, if you can delay an India operation till after April...allowing those troops to recover morale, prep to 100, and better fighters and forts to be built.

We shall see.

[Encircled]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: Encircled

ORIGINAL: GetAssista


Why would you want to waste Chinese supply on Burma roads for India protection? In my book Burma is usually a lost cause and a place for delaying action at most to let mobile Chinese march into India. After that India is protected nicely from that direction by terrain and lack of supply on the Burma side, as well as RR fast reaction possibilities on the India side. Hardly any JFB ventures into India from here, they all choose amphibious route and for a good reason.
Edit: I remember some AARs where Allies overcommited to Burma defense only to be encircled a bit later by Calcutta landings and massacred.

IMO Japan is perfectly capable of letting you into Marianas in mid 42 and then isolating and squishing you in late 42 when they are back from Bengal. They still have a lot of time and a capable carrier arm, while you don't. Not to mention distances to home bases.

Its a balance I think

I'm too cautius in my current game, because I was too aggressive in the game before that!

But it depends entirely in 1942 on what the Japanese player is aiming for.

If he's going for a 1942 win, then he's got to knock out China or Oz or India and sink the US carriers.

Surviving 1942 is the aim of all Allied players first and foremost I feel.

knocking out China AND India AND sink the US carriers has resulted in a 6.5:1 in my ongoing game and you only need a 4:1, way easier to achieve and Allied players often tend to forget this.

Yup

Surviving 1942 and not losing (especially in Scen 2) has to be the allied aim

Yeah, there are AARs where the allies have sunk the KB in '42, but that only happens if the Japanese player is going big and the allied player is ready for it.