Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A)

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Bif1961

Lost Battalion of the Pacific, World War II. 131 st Field Artillery 2 nd Battalion. Mobilized at Fort Richardson, Jacksboro, Texas, 25 Nov 1940. Captured by the Japanese Forces 8 Mar 1942. Liberated 15 Aug 1945.

I did not know that one. I did know about the one in 1944 in Europe. But then again, I was thinking infantry. That one surrendered when the Dutch lost and basically had their Allies surrender instead of trying to evacuate.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Ok, that I understand.

I suspect a lot of AFBs are not allowing upgrades to restricted units until they buy them out, and by then you are further down the AFV upgrade path skipping plentiful machines for the top of the line precious ones.

Years back M-M I think came up with a tactic of stripping the tractors from IJA heavy artillery since they are useless mouths. I argued at the time, and he eventually discovered, that those useless mouths acts as a damage sponge...soaking up damage that would otherwise go to the AFV in your example. With IJA heavy artillery, stripping off the tractors made the unit very fragile and subject to destruction very easily.

Hazy memory on that, it was quite a while back. I'm sure it was in those late war bombardment duels or Chungkingrad that this cropped up. Essentially a bit of a catch-22, as IIRC the tractors are quite squishy and cost VEH points, but as the units are normally small (ie, 4 guns or so) they can be easily wiped out if the tractors aren't there to give them a cushion.

I wrote far to much on pool management, so I'll condense it down as far as possible.

- watch the tanks closely, and check tracker for the "correct" upgrade path.

- in Japanese terms, all tanks are created equal as the IJA lacks the anti-armour firepower to really get a handle on nearly every "proper" Allied tank. Matilda's are suitable for frontline combat almost the entire war, so don't be afraid to leave big tank units using them. They're surprising similar in stats to a M26 Perishing...

- the shared Commonwealth device pool is a blessing and a curse, need to watch that it goes where needed. Don't want NZ soaking up the PIATs and the 25 pounder guns.

- I remember a big challenge was timely upgrades of infantry squads, especially around the Australian Army. There's a notable difference in the '42 upgrades for the Commonwealth forces, and a massive difference in '43, so getting them out as fast as possible is a massive priority.

[mind_messing]

Radars was another thing that is worth checking out, as there are two radar production schemes - one is the US SCR-270 which is fairly common, the other one is the British series that is in much shorter supply.

Worth separating out what uses what to ensure radar goes where it's needed.

Needless to say, tracker is essential!

[Lowpe]

Thanks M-M! Very helpful![&o] Just need the game to start.[;)]

[Lowpe]

Last night I messed around with opening magic moves for Japan. Not encouraging this, but what will be will be.

With two day turns, you can land in Portland, Ceylon, Rangoon. I didn't test Oz or Pearl Harbor area. To reliably take Portland, I think you need to send carriers there to bomb the American unit and protect your ground troops...otherwise it is likely you won't be able to capture Portland on Dec 9th and you have activated the reinforcement for no gain.

It would be interesting to see how a Portland option would play out, I bet Japan's normal expansion might be slowed a bit by the emergency reinforcements. I guess Japan would reap a VP bonanza with all the ships destroyed while building, if that is their status. Not sure on that one.

Some of the invasions you risk a lot...from CD guns to unexpected ship engagements. Singapore/Palembang/Balikpapen is dicey for unexpected ship engagements but really only Force Z has the experience to give a good fight. Still, getting the Marblehead TF into a large troop convoy wouldn't be pleasant.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Thanks M-M! Very helpful![&o] Just need the game to start.[;)]

It's a bit of nostalgia for me actually, back to the days when I played the Allies.

Much more micromanagement intensive compared to the Japanese if you want to min-max.

[Q-Ball]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

It would be interesting to see how a Portland option would play out, I bet Japan's normal expansion might be slowed a bit by the emergency reinforcements. I guess Japan would reap a VP bonanza with all the ships destroyed while building, if that is their status. Not sure on that one.

EDIT AFTER TEST: Portland is impossible; the closest you can get a reasonable amount of troops is about ADAK Island in two days; still several days sail to Portland. That's after removing any ship under 15 kts from the Magic Transport TFs.

They made it about 95 sea hexes from Samah, so that seems to be the outer limit. Rangoon and/or Ceylon are doable, but not Sydney or Portland

Overall I hate these kind of gambits in a real game, because they tend to end the game early, whether it succeeds or not

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

It would be interesting to see how a Portland option would play out, I bet Japan's normal expansion might be slowed a bit by the emergency reinforcements. I guess Japan would reap a VP bonanza with all the ships destroyed while building, if that is their status. Not sure on that one.

EDIT AFTER TEST: Portland is impossible; the closest you can get a reasonable amount of troops is about ADAK Island in two days; still several days sail to Portland. That's after removing any ship under 15 kts from the Magic Transport TFs.

They made it about 95 sea hexes from Samah, so that seems to be the outer limit. Rangoon and/or Ceylon are doable, but not Sydney or Portland

Overall I hate these kind of gambits in a real game, because they tend to end the game early, whether it succeeds or not

Nah, there is a trick to get to Portland. You need to use the magic tf at Ominato and play with it a bit.

[Q-Ball]

How? Have it merge and pick-up the units at Sendai?

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

How? Have it merge and pick-up the units at Sendai?

Not sure that would work, testing it now. It might work. (Tried it once, didn't work -- but it might as I didn't exhaust all possibilites).

I did something else.

[Lowpe]

Pretty doable.

[rustysi]

I can't believe I am going to play the Allies.

Heresy!!!!![:D]

Say it ain't so.

What's the world coming too?[8|]

[Q-Ball]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Pretty doable.

Still can't figure it out, though I have to think harder. Either way, this is of course way gamey, and should be subject to House Rule for sure.....

[RangerJoe]

Getting Wake as well, how many CVEs were sunk?

I wonder if the air units can be bought out and if so, when?

If you do that, bomb Coos Bay's Resources for VPs as well.

From there, invade Prince Rupert . . .

[Alfred]

I would immediately, with absolutely no correspondence entered into, walk away from a game if an opponent abused the first turn magic move bonus to take out Portland or any similar Allied game infrastructure.  Absolutely no tolerance for the resulting JFB whining about the necessity of doing so blah blah blah.
 
Think about it for a single moment.
 
1.  The first turn move bonus is in the game only to allow the AI to achieve the historical strikes.  As the game is designed it also allows a human Japan player to be in position for the historical Pearl Harbor, necessary as the game does not start on 26 November with the KB starting it's journey to Pearl Harbor.  The alternative to not having the bonus move is to hard code the Japanese forces to their historical 7 December 1941 positions.  That would kill off any alternative options, no Manila port strike in lieu of Pearl Harbor, no Mersing Gambit, no nothing.  Just the Historical 7Dec 1941 first turn option.  Swallow that pill you JFBs who insist Japan is only playable if it drastically deviates from the opening historical opening moves.
 
2.  AE is supposed to capture the historical capabilities of the respective PTO combatants.  Excluding the Emergency Reinforcements, only the Allied forces actually sent to the PTO are included.  How much fun do these JFBs believe they would have if absolutely the entire ETO forces were sent to the Pacific in 1942.
 
3.  The entire design philosophy of having future arriving USN ships destroyed on the stocks if the arriving base is captured by Japan, is predicated on the view that (a) the key shipbuilding yards are far away in the rear, well out of reach of any early Japanese moves using standard game mechanics, and (b) by the time, using standard game mechanics, Japan could threaten them, it is shame upon the Allied player for not properly garrisoning those locations.  Nothing wrong with Japan trying to capture Portland (or Seattle, or San Diego et al) in January 1942.  By then the Allied player has had time to set up their search patterns and send LCUs to garrison Portland, so some forewarning and forward/rear defensive preparation is possible.  None of this is at all possible on turn 1.
 
The scenario designer may just not have bothered including all that future OOB capability, it would produce exactly the same outcome.  Actually it would be even preferable as then the Allied player wouldn't lose all those VPs.  However just how many people would have bought AE if told;
 
"well AE is an attempt to accurately represent the historical capabilities and logistical constraints which confronted the historical leaders except almost all the jeep carriers have been removed, or there won't be any 2E or 4E Allied bombers built because their factories aren't in the game as Japan could have captured them on 7/8/9 December 1941.  And of course as you won't be getting those aircraft you won't be needing all those squadrons so there was no need for the designers to research the historical OOBs."
 
Of course it would be silly.  But if a serious game possibility, who for a moment would be surprised if the devs had not changed the game design so that all the jeep carriers arrived off map, all the aircraft were produced off map.  The slight affront to historical accuracy would be well worthwhile just to squash this silly notion that the historical industrial capacity (and future industrial expansion) of the USA could have been so easily destroyed and made smaller than the game industrial capacity of Japan (after it captures the SRA).
 
 
I'd like to see the next Super Bowl played where for the first quarter only Team A takes to the field.  No players from Team B take to the field before the second quarter and then when they do Team B can't field its offense roster (being forced to use just its defence roster) and touchdowns for team B score only 2 points with no conversions allowed.  See how far the fan base would support that game design philosophy. 
 
Alfred

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

I would immediately, with absolutely no correspondence entered into, walk away from a game if an opponent abused the first turn magic move bonus to take out Portland or any similar Allied game infrastructure.  Absolutely no tolerance for the resulting JFB whining about the necessity of doing so blah blah blah.

Think about it for a single moment.

1.  The first turn move bonus is in the game only to allow the AI to achieve the historical strikes.  As the game is designed it also allows a human Japan player to be in position for the historical Pearl Harbor, necessary as the game does not start on 26 November with the KB starting it's journey to Pearl Harbor.  The alternative to not having the bonus move is to hard code the Japanese forces to their historical 7 December 1941 positions.  That would kill off any alternative options, no Manila port strike in lieu of Pearl Harbor, no Mersing Gambit, no nothing.  Just the Historical 7Dec 1941 first turn option.  Swallow that pill you JFBs who insist Japan is only playable if it drastically deviates from the opening historical opening moves.

2.  AE is supposed to capture the historical capabilities of the respective PTO combatants.  Excluding the Emergency Reinforcements, only the Allied forces actually sent to the PTO are included.  How much fun do these JFBs believe they would have if absolutely the entire ETO forces were sent to the Pacific in 1942.

3.  The entire design philosophy of having future arriving USN ships destroyed on the stocks if the arriving base is captured by Japan, is predicated on the view that (a) the key shipbuilding yards are far away in the rear, well out of reach of any early Japanese moves using standard game mechanics, and (b) by the time, using standard game mechanics, Japan could threaten them, it is shame upon the Allied player for not properly garrisoning those locations.  Nothing wrong with Japan trying to capture Portland (or Seattle, or San Diego et al) in January 1942.  By then the Allied player has had time to set up their search patterns and send LCUs to garrison Portland, so some forewarning and forward/rear defensive preparation is possible.  None of this is at all possible on turn 1.

The scenario designer may just not have bothered including all that future OOB capability, it would produce exactly the same outcome.  Actually it would be even preferable as then the Allied player wouldn't lose all those VPs.  However just how many people would have bought AE if told;

"well AE is an attempt to accurately represent the historical capabilities and logistical constraints which confronted the historical leaders except almost all the jeep carriers have been removed, or there won't be any 2E or 4E Allied bombers built because their factories aren't in the game as Japan could have captured them on 7/8/9 December 1941.  And of course as you won't be getting those aircraft you won't be needing all those squadrons so there was no need for the designers to research the historical OOBs."

Of course it would be silly.  But if a serious game possibility, who for a moment would be surprised if the devs had not changed the game design so that all the jeep carriers arrived off map, all the aircraft were produced off map.  The slight affront to historical accuracy would be well worthwhile just to squash this silly notion that the historical industrial capacity (and future industrial expansion) of the USA could have been so easily destroyed and made smaller than the game industrial capacity of Japan (after it captures the SRA).


I'd like to see the next Super Bowl played where for the first quarter only Team A takes to the field.  No players from Team B take to the field before the second quarter and then when they do Team B can't field its offense roster (being forced to use just its defence roster) and touchdowns for team B score only 2 points with no conversions allowed.  See how far the fan base would support that game design philosophy. 

Alfred

I agree.

Plus, the main battle fleet (the BBs) was still in the Home Islands. If they would have moved south, I am pretty sure that the Allies would have known about that and put their forces on high alert. If they were near the DEI, then Force Z would not have sallied forth. The Asiatic fleet would have gone into the DEI as was being planned with Admiral Phillips in Manila when the Pearl Harbor attacked occurred. The Commonwealth was monitoring the invasion fleet movements already and if they saw even more ships, they would have been at a very high alert stage. As it was, they were attempting to get into Siam to a ridge line for defensive purposes. They dithered and did not go to an alternate position in time.

But if the Minnesota Vikings were Team A in that Super Bowl game that you described, maybe they could finally win one.

[rustysi]

I'd like to see the next Super Bowl played where for the first quarter only Team A takes to the field. No players from Team B take to the field before the second quarter

IIRC the NY Jets played an entire season like that back in the day. Of course it wasn't the Super Bowl and it was't the first quarter all the time, but yes the Jets played almost the whole season as if the game consisted of only three periods of play. I must say that they were superb for those three periods.[:D]

[GetAssista]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe
Pretty doable.

Nice!
Now there's another addition to the usual "no US CV hunting on first turn" house rule. Seasoned wargame players don't need that one, cause it's obviously a wildly unreasonable development. Would be useful for those who play "anything goes if not forbidden" though. Mind it, there's nothing wrong with either approach as long as your partner agrees to it [:)]

[Lowpe]

Looks like first turn is pretty close.[:)] Not sure what I can do on turn 1. A lot of it is just self imposed restrictions because I feel like Japan should surprise the Allies for the most part. I think I might be secretly rooting for the Empire![X(]

My thoughts:

1. Dutch full existing task force move as they declared war on Japan before the outbreak of hostilities. However I will limit everything to defensive task force moves. No creation of task forces, no air base transfers, no messing with existing air orders. But if I want I can change leaders.

2. China full move, no restrictions.

3. US. Only orders to existing task forces at sea and really only because there is two day turns. No messing around with air. The minesweeper TF at Johnston for example, the CVs.

4. British -- not sure on this one. Have to admit I am not real comfortable here. Willing to trade Task Force Z for no Mersing Tactic (or a Singapore invasion). Ideally I would like to see Task Force Z take a pounding but survive.

5. New Zealand, India, Oz: Nothing. Could be up a creek if the KB wanders down.

6. Soviets, usual air training program.

So, Dec 9th turn will be the real monster with base building, pools, upgrades, counter punches, thundering herd, subs (if any are left) etc, etc.

[Jorge_Stanbury]

are you sure about the Dutch declaration of war?

"the Dutch government-in-exile declared war on Japan the day after the attack on Pearl Harbor, 8 December 1941 (London time). The Japanese, however, did not declare war in turn on the Netherlands until 11 January 1942, possibly in the hope that this would delay the demolition of Dutch oil fields until the japanese were ready move against them.