Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A)

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Having thought about, and examined the OOB in detail, I am going to go so far to say that China is far from a lost cause that most AFBs complain of. There, I said it.[:)] I feel very confident I can stalemate the IJA, and eventually turn the tables on them in China.

My big concern is the Armored/Heavy artillery Schwerpunkt. I have taken steps to counter this.

Putting this in writing now, so I can eat crow later.[:D]

Over the years I have made several posts arguing that most AFB just badly mishandle China.

I've never believed China to be a lost cause. Against a good and determined Japanese opponent, it might be impossible to prevent the loss of all the Chinese bases but that doesn't matter if it happens well into 1943. Such a result would be a strategic Allied victory because of the huge opportunity cost it would have imposed on Japan. A Japan still heavily involved in China in 1943 should be an easy roll to American and Australian forces.

Alfred

I have read some of your great posts on the matter Alfred![&o]

When I have taken China, I always progressed thru shocked that the Chinese are letting me get this hex or that base for free, especially the non base critical hexes. Just giving away hexes that should be defended and defended heavily.

So, I always knew there was a much better way...but in looking at the OOB, I am fairly impressed with some of the units, at how quickly they can be built up for their role to help counter China's perceived weakness in AA for one example. The generous HQs, it is like a bonanza there.

One thing not regularly commented on is the relative firepower. The Chinese 1941 infantry is substantially weaker than their enemy in terms of regular Japanese homeland raised infantry (not so bad when compared to collaborating forces). The delta does start to narrow with the 1943 and 1945 Chinese infantry upgrades. Full firepower parity is never achieved but the delta is substantially reduced. A fully fleshed out Chinese corps in 1942 with av of 721 is nowhere near as threatening to Japanese interests as the same unit with 721 AV of 1943 infantry, let alone 1945 infantry.

Alfred

[DesertWolf101]

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101
I have only one previous campaign as the Chinese to go on, but if I can offer one piece of advise, it would be to not get too attached to a well defended position at the cost of allowing the Japanese player to concentrate their forces elsewhere. By all means you should defend key bases with good supply like Changsha, but sitting in an impregnable mountain hex somewhere is useless if the Japanese simply shift their main axis of advance in another direction. The Chinese are on the strategic defensive, but operationally that defense needs to be elastic and keep pace with where the Japanese are pushing.

I disagree. Chinese have a lot of AV that is enough to organize multiple strong points, and can be great when dug in hard terrain. But to dig in you need it to be stationary for prolonged periods of time. Just choose the places wisely, not every x3 hex has strategic importance.

Edit: sure there should be a dynamic part too. E.g. strategic reserves and the annoying cockroach run-around through Japanese lines

I'm not really sure what there is to disagree with. What good is a well defended mountain hex with high forts if it is simply screened, bypassed, and never attacked by the Japanese player? The hexes where the Chinese make their stand must always be directly relevant to their usefulness - defend only the avenues that are likely to be used, and be willing to abandon the ones that are no longer useful even if the Chinese forces there have spent a long time digging in and have high breastworks.

If you have the time and inclination, I invite you to take a look at my current AAR where the dangers of a non-elastic Chinese defense are amply highlighted.

[mind_messing]

On the China discussion, I think Alfred's previous comments on how to construct a solid position in China are pretty definitive.

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

How do most AFBs spend their early PP?

Good captains for the initial DEI combat ships.
Getting the B17s off Luzon to raid undefended IJ ports in the area (Babeldoab, Samah, Formosa).
Changing HQ's for key LCU's that you may want to remove from the DEI.

On the PP's for Chinese leaders, I wouldn't be hasty with splashing the PP's quite yet. I'm not convinced it would be a worthwhile use of PP's versus freeing a US division for the Pacific/Australia. While the average Chinese leaders are bad, they're not outright terrible.

I'd take a somewhat risky approach to it - replace the corps commanders when the IJA actually march into the hex and not until [:)]

[GetAssista]

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101
I'm not really sure what there is to disagree with. What good is a well defended mountain hex with high forts if it is simply screened, bypassed, and never attacked by the Japanese player? The hexes where the Chinese make their stand must always be directly relevant to their usefulness - defend only the avenues that are likely to be used, and be willing to abandon the ones that are no longer useful even if the Chinese forces there have spent a long time digging in and have high breastworks.

Thing is, if Japan wastes time bypassing you, it's good usage of at least some of your troops. If it bypasses your roadblock it is double useful cause marching through roadless hexes is slow. Goes w/o saying that when roadblock is no longer useful it can retreat. But it often still is - Japanese supply has to travel around.
And there are lots of avenues that are likely to be used. So many that their defense resembles MLR, specifically to the north-west of Changsha

[Lowpe]

I misunderstood the Empire's position with the first turn, I read an email to believe it to be imminent, however Scout1 was merely informing me he was going to send me an email and not the turn.

We are now at he will give me a heads up when he is close. I hope his irl concerns, undiagnosed, work out even if the game doesn't. On Wednesday he informed me that the bases/industry done, now he is back to playing with Navy toys and then on to his lcus.

Not very promising, tbh. We agreed to the game prior the July 11th. Two full weeks for the first turn with no touchdown in sight so to speak...doesn't bode well.

I have told him no hurry with the first turn, get it correct but I think I will have to change that position shortly.[:(]

PS: I am starting to forget all of my good and not so good ideas I had for the opening.[:D]

[DesertWolf101]

Do you write down your ideas/plans? I find that keeping notes is very helpful in tracking all the small and big things I want to do.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I misunderstood the Empire's position with the first turn, I read an email to believe it to be imminent, however Scout1 was merely informing me he was going to send me an email and not the turn.

We are now at he will give me a heads up when he is close. I hope his irl concerns, undiagnosed, work out even if the game doesn't. On Wednesday he informed me that the bases/industry done, now he is back to playing with Navy toys and then on to his lcus.

Not very promising, tbh. We agreed to the game prior the July 11th. Two full weeks for the first turn with no touchdown in sight so to speak...doesn't bode well.

I have told him no hurry with the first turn, get it correct but I think I will have to change that position shortly.[:(]

PS: I am starting to forget all of my good and not so good ideas I had for the opening.[:D]

What is the first sign of old age? [&:]

I don't remember! [:@]

What is the sign of middle age? [&:]

When a broad mind and a narrow waist change places! [:@]

But I never had a narrow waist! [:@]

[Anachro]

The first turn can be very daunting, much more so than Allies Turn 2 (which is also intense) because your decisions and opening success is absolutely key to the long-term game. Allies can afford to take a more lax approach. Nonetheless, it's still good to remind JFB's that not everything needs to be done on turn 1; you can take a whole week (7 turns) to get everything in order and be perfectly fine.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: Anachro

The first turn can be very daunting, much more so than Allies Turn 2 (which is also intense) because your decisions and opening success is absolutely key to the long-term game. Allies can afford to take a more lax approach. Nonetheless, it's still good to remind JFB's that not everything needs to be done on turn 1; you can take a whole week (7 turns) to get everything in order and be perfectly fine.

It sounds like he is testing out all his opening set-up. Doing so with a critical and original opening move would be fine, but testing everything everywhere is asking too much of your patience.

[RangerJoe]

What would you think about the IJN getting the A7M2 Sam in 1943 - or even earlier? It would depend upon the engine research, not the airframe . . .

[Anachro]

I have no idea, but its exceedingly easy to get the A6M8 by early 1943 or better perhaps. Is there any reason to go for the A6M8 over A6M5? Or simply go for the A7M2 after getting the A7M5 without worrying about the 8? Sorry for turning Lowpe's Allied AAR into questions on Japan, but... [8D]

[RangerJoe]

Not to get picky, but the A7M2 Sam is a different bird that any of the A6M* birds. The Sam is 42 mph faster, more durable, but less maneuverable than the A6M8. The max speed is 392 mph, armour of 1, and the best maneuver rating is 24. It has has four cannons. It is more than equal to the Hellcat. Think of being able to get that as soon as you have the engine researched and producing! [:D]

[JoV]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I misunderstood the Empire's position with the first turn, I read an email to believe it to be imminent, however Scout1 was merely informing me he was going to send me an email and not the turn.

We are now at he will give me a heads up when he is close. I hope his irl concerns, undiagnosed, work out even if the game doesn't. On Wednesday he informed me that the bases/industry done, now he is back to playing with Navy toys and then on to his lcus.

Not very promising, tbh. We agreed to the game prior the July 11th. Two full weeks for the first turn with no touchdown in sight so to speak...doesn't bode well.

I have told him no hurry with the first turn, get it correct but I think I will have to change that position shortly.[:(]

PS: I am starting to forget all of my good and not so good ideas I had for the opening.[:D]

Obviously no idea what is going on in the background, but must be intimidating for any but the most seasoned vet of the game to see a ten page AAR before the game has even begun.

Are you and your prospective opponent on the same page as to the type of game you are intending to play? They might be feeling they are getting more than they bargained for. I know I would [:D]

Would like to see how some of these proposed plans work out in practice, so hoping you get a game to try them in, even if not necessarily with this opponent.

[Lowpe]

Got a missive from Japan seeking my views on adding additional units with the magic move, nothing silly/gamey like Singapore, but 2 port attacks on initial turn.

Not sure exactly what he means, but I told him to go for it. If I had to guess perhaps he wants to invade Ambon, Sinkawang, Jolo, or Denpassar. I guess.

Just want the game to start.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: Anachro

The first turn can be very daunting, much more so than Allies Turn 2 (which is also intense) because your decisions and opening success is absolutely key to the long-term game. Allies can afford to take a more lax approach. Nonetheless, it's still good to remind JFB's that not everything needs to be done on turn 1; you can take a whole week (7 turns) to get everything in order and be perfectly fine.

It sounds like he is testing out all his opening set-up.

See post above, he certainly wants to tweak the magic move.

In general I would say this is a mistake, his energies would be better served in other areas.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Not to get picky, but the A7M2 Sam is a different bird that any of the A6M* birds. The Sam is 42 mph faster, more durable, but less maneuverable than the A6M8. The max speed is 392 mph, armour of 1, and the best maneuver rating is 24. It has has four cannons. It is more than equal to the Hellcat. Think of being able to get that as soon as you have the engine researched and producing! [:D]

Well, if that means sacrificing almost every other plane to historical arrival, and he wants to go down this road, I am sure the Allies would adopt counter strategies.

I have faced down Jugs with the A6M5c and Oscar...the thing is there are always counters in this game. And to be quite honest, the Allies are masters of strategic change.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: JoV

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I misunderstood the Empire's position with the first turn, I read an email to believe it to be imminent, however Scout1 was merely informing me he was going to send me an email and not the turn.

We are now at he will give me a heads up when he is close. I hope his irl concerns, undiagnosed, work out even if the game doesn't. On Wednesday he informed me that the bases/industry done, now he is back to playing with Navy toys and then on to his lcus.

Not very promising, tbh. We agreed to the game prior the July 11th. Two full weeks for the first turn with no touchdown in sight so to speak...doesn't bode well.

I have told him no hurry with the first turn, get it correct but I think I will have to change that position shortly.[:(]

PS: I am starting to forget all of my good and not so good ideas I had for the opening.[:D]

Obviously no idea what is going on in the background, but must be intimidating for any but the most seasoned vet of the game to see a ten page AAR before the game has even begun.

Are you and your prospective opponent on the same page as to the type of game you are intending to play? They might be feeling they are getting more than they bargained for. I know I would [:D]

Would like to see how some of these proposed plans work out in practice, so hoping you get a game to try them in, even if not necessarily with this opponent.

We have swapped emails about the number of pages in the AAR. He does feel as a returning player he might need spotting a few points.

There was an AAR that went 17 pages before Dec 7 turn.

I think we are on the same page about what kind of game to expect, I worry now about the game managing a 5 turns per week pace on his end or that if he manages that pace he can't put the proper attention into the turns.

[Anachro]

I wouldn't worry too much about pace for the first few turns as they are the busiest. Maybe his pace a few weeks after that.

However, in regards to the above, I guess I wasn't asking if he should go for the A7M or the A6M8, but in the mean time while waiting for the A7M, does it make sense to pursue beyond the A6M5 to the A6M8? What are the advantages of doing so? It's been awhile, but I feel like I've gotten advice to pursue the A6M5 and just use that until I get the A7M, with the advice that the A6M8 was either not worth it or in some ways worse than the A6M5.

And with that, I'll refrain from asking more about Japan. This is an Allies thread. I am an AFB, though I am playing a Japan game right now. Playing around with magic moves can be tricky. For instance, in my Japan game I made a mistake or misclick on where to send my mini-KB and lost a CVL on the first turn to PoW and Repulse! [:D]

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Anachro

I wouldn't worry too much about pace for the first few turns as they are the busiest. Maybe his pace a few weeks after that.

However, in regards to the above, I guess I wasn't asking if he should go for the A7M or the A6M8, but in the mean time while waiting for the A7M, does it make sense to pursue beyond the A6M5 to the A6M8? What are the advantages of doing so? It's been awhile, but I feel like I've gotten advice to pursue the A6M5 and just use that until I get the A7M, with the advice that the A6M8 was either not worth it or in some ways worse than the A6M5.

And with that, I'll refrain from asking more about Japan. This is an Allies thread. I am an AFB, though I am playing a Japan game right now. Playing around with magic moves can be tricky. For instance, in my Japan game I made a mistake or misclick on where to send my mini-KB and lost a CVL on the first turn to PoW and Repulse! [:D]

There is one advantage to the A6M8 over the A7M2 in that the engine for the A6M8 is already being produced while you have to research the engine for the A7M2 Sam.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Not to get picky, but the A7M2 Sam is a different bird that any of the A6M* birds. The Sam is 42 mph faster, more durable, but less maneuverable than the A6M8. The max speed is 392 mph, armour of 1, and the best maneuver rating is 24. It has has four cannons. It is more than equal to the Hellcat. Think of being able to get that as soon as you have the engine researched and producing! [:D]

Well, if that means sacrificing almost every other plane to historical arrival, and he wants to go down this road, I am sure the Allies would adopt counter strategies.

I have faced down Jugs with the A6M5c and Oscar...the thing is there are always counters in this game. And to be quite honest, the Allies are masters of strategic change.

Not really and I sent you a pm about it.