Paul has said...

Warrior · Post by **Warrior** » Sun Jun 24, 2001 8:23 pm

In response to posts about the "invincible infantry" in v5.02, Paul posted: "You will find Small arms are nearly useless at killing entrenched troops (which they were) but they will suppress them so you can assault and melee. Even troops in cover are tough."

I think it goes beyond that. I had two Shermans, two Wolverines, three rifle squads, a recon squad, and two HQ squads firing (with everything they had) at a German engineer squad from two hexes distance, for FOUR turns in a row, and the Germans never got a scratch. (Oh, and I was also dropping 81mm mortars on them each turn.)

soldat31 · Post by **soldat31** » Sun Jun 24, 2001 8:42 pm

Yeah, infantry is really out of wack in 5.2. I think even rifles should have some effectiveness in close quarters. But I have always had the feeling that LMGs and HMGs are a lot less effective than they should be. I'm tired of my MG34 and MG42's not doing anything.

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Sun Jun 24, 2001 9:00 pm

I'm wondering if the patch maybe didn't delete teh steel.prf file or something becasue I am not getting these outrageous results here...lower casualties than before, but not 4 and 5 turns of nothing...

I just took a platoon of US infantry and a Pltoon of shermmans against a pt of entrenched Germans and wiped them out in 6 turns without a melee or an over run...took 15 US casulaties doing it too...

TRy deleting the steel.prf file???

Jeff Norton · Post by **Jeff Norton** » Sun Jun 24, 2001 9:04 pm

Amen...

Just been playing my campaign and, at a range of 4, aginst SO inf, My Pz-3H's are hitting at 89%, and, doing nothing. Machineguns are at 95% and are not producing casulties. Visability is 15+, no weather, and all my values for hitting/toughness are at the default.

If my SS Infantry sit still and fire, they fire at 14 -18% with their basic weapons at that range. If they move one hex, they drop to 4-8% chance to hit. Most of my squads are vets and that should make some diference, Huh?

UH, what's going on???

-Jeff

JimY · Post by **JimY** » Sun Jun 24, 2001 9:18 pm

I have tried playing 5.01 with infantry toughness at 140% and artillery v. soft targets at 140%. This seems about right to me. Maybe cover could be more of a benefit to defenders.

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Sun Jun 24, 2001 9:33 pm

Well try the 5.2 patch and see what you think

soldat31 · Post by **soldat31** » Sun Jun 24, 2001 9:41 pm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Paul Vebber:
"I'm wondering if the patch maybe didn't delete teh steel.prf file or something becasue I am not getting these outrageous results here..."

I deleted SPWAW prior to installing the MC and then 5.02. That includes the steel.prf file. I don't think that that is the problem.

Warrior · Post by **Warrior** » Sun Jun 24, 2001 9:44 pm

Originally posted by Paul Vebber:
I'm wondering if the patch maybe didn't delete teh steel.prf file or something

TRy deleting the steel.prf file???

I didn't use the official patch. I used the v5.02 mech.exe and Oob's you emailed me during Friday night's chat. I deleted the 5.01 mech.exe before copying the new files in. Still, anything is possible.

Charles2222 · Post by **Charles2222** » Sun Jun 24, 2001 10:04 pm

I haven't played any infantry weapons battles with 5.2 yet, but I see a SIGNIFIGANT difference in "the first shot" placed on advancing infantry in the open, which I believe has been alluded to before. Once they take their losses, they were perhaps a little tougher to MGs from the tanks, but not enough to notice. I haven't shot at any entrenched units yet. Before, the only way I got signifigant losses on advancing enemy infantry, playing as '39 Gerry, was if I had the PZIB all stopped and trained and the losses varied between 1 and 4. In 5.2 I don't thing either shot was from the PZIB, while one of them I know was from the 37mm AA gun on the SPAA the Gerries have, and one shot killed 5, while another shot, the first, knocked out 9!!! It seems the first shot in the open can be wipeout city, and then after that they're pinned and it seems to pretty much be one loss at a time.

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Sun Jun 24, 2001 10:11 pm

Yes until they "hit the dirt" you can rip through infatry with heavy weapons like that - that is exactly as intended, but once thye go prone and scramble for cover, you suppress, but seldom kill.

Part of teh bug bfore was that just about every shot had a significant chance to do 1 kill, hence what many reffered to as "being 1 casualtied to death" that was a bug that we fixed, and now things are working as inteneded.

Once troops have gone to ground - fire enough to keep them there, and bring arty to bear, or wait until they start moving again and very vulnerable.

Folks are se to infantry in every terrian being taking out by 15 or 20 shots beasue about half would alway s get 1 cas. That should not have worked, and doesn't anymore.

THe remaing question is just where now that this is fixed, should inf toughness 100 be set?

[ June 24, 2001: Message edited by: Paul Vebber ]

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Sun Jun 24, 2001 10:16 pm

Quote:
8) Ricochet incidence reduced somewhat Casualty computation scrubbed, better accounting for leadership fire direction, artillery casualties and protection of units entrenched, incover and in protective terrain. Bottom line is artillery casualties are increased and small arms casualties decreased, and exposure for firing reduced for entrenched troops so firing doesn't strip them of cover as much.
---------------

This is part of the description of the 5.2 patch. I'm not sure I understand the import of it. I do notice that it says small arms casualties are reduced.

In the light of all that is said here, I have a question. Is the AI getting more or better kills than the human player? Is this the problem? Or is it that the AI is having just as bad results as you the human player?

In other words, do you feel that the AI is getting a better casualty result than you are?

An answer to this might be helpful!

Wild Bill

JimY · Post by **JimY** » Sun Jun 24, 2001 11:25 pm

I replied to this in the "rubber bullets" topic. I did notice in 5.2 that the first shot had a small chance of getting a hit. Problem with decreasing infantry toughness is then artillery wipes them out. Infantry was not vulnerable to rifle fire even at short range in poor defensive terrain. 5.2 seems to go too far to eliminate the one casualty per shot. I seemed to have solved that problem in 5.01 by increasing infantry toughness to 140 and artillery v. soft target to 140. Infantry in poor terrain takes an occasional causualty to close range rifle fire, less in good terrain and some but not total to artillery. Entrenched defenders do take some rifle casualties even from 4-8 range from AI attackers. Maybe defensive terrain did need to be increased from 5.01.

Jester · Post by **Jester** » Mon Jun 25, 2001 2:36 am

Unfortunately i have to report some probems with ver 5.2 in gameply.
playing WB's "Slaugherhouse at Sluzk"-41, i now have a PzJg-1b with targeting going fromhex 1.1 to a victory hex, all ot of sight;i had l of tanks not firing because simply using the mouse target did not work, or simply did not want to fire, with "ready statement, still projectiles in, and lot of enemies in sightand in range.Also occurred that i could not select another vehicle,being the selection locked to a vehicle tht, in this way, moved and went destroied.
i've never found so many bugs all together. Untill now to find only one was for me a very surprise.

did i miss something?

very respectful

jester

JimY · Post by **JimY** » Mon Jun 25, 2001 5:00 am

I tried decreasing infantry toughness in 5.2. It made the infantry too vulnerable to artillery and other heavy weapons and did not increase casualties from rifles or light MG's very much.