Tyrone (Axis) vs Sparkley-T.

[tyronec]

12.05, Random Weather, Full blizzard.
No para drops or naval invasions.

This is the experimental bit to see if we can get a game with a reasonable air war:
No air base bombing except by Axis on T1.
No unit bombing except the Soviets can bomb Panzers up to T17. S-T wanted this to be able to cause fatigue.
So the air war should largely be Ground Support and some Interdiction.

We have played once before, my last game of WITE1 a couple of years back before I started play testing WITE2; S-T won that time, one of only two games I have lost to date. Am also starting a game of WITE2 at the same time so it is quite odd playing AGS on alternate days using the two different versions of the game.

T1.
Much the same opening as my game against Brian.
A couple of slight improvements with AGS, and some more damage against the VVS.
Some of the pockets are bit thin, not sure if they will all hold.

[eskuche]

Interested to see this game and interesting rules. NE of Brest-Litovsk might be able to be daisy chained from the outside RD if the two motor roll 13 MP otherwise tight I think.

[redrum68]

Subscribed. Agree interesting air rules. I tend to agree with at least no airbase bombing after Axis T1 given the current interception bug. Hoping we see this go til 1945!

[BrianG]

good luck to both

It's hq escape time for Russians.

better than reform at zero % on east board map.

[tyronec]

T2.
All pockets held.
S-T is retreating at full speed across the map, a few units were slowed down by Interdiction.
First screen shot is AGS after Recon, the ZOC locks have held and a few Panzers Isolated which is not surprising.

End of turn.
AGN fairly standard, no defense of the river line at Pskov.
AGC have pocketed a couple of units around Minsk and an Infantry unit that was ZOC locked.
AGS. Seal off the group ZOC locked last turn without any escaping and catch a couple more to the South. Am trying to threaten a pocket around Kishinev for next turn.
The activated units from PG1 get sent to AGC and some of PG2 gets transferred to PG1.

[tyronec]

AGN. Building up for the assault on Pskov.

AGC. Soviets broke my advanced pockets, so reseal them and wait for the infantry to arrive. PG3 is reconstituted and ready for action.

AGS. The T1 offensive is largely complete, those units that were ZOC locked have been properly pocketed so some Panzers shifted back to AGC and PG1 is down to 3 Panzer Corps. Move the emphasis from Zhitomir down to Odessa for the next main push.

Am converting 4 rail lines West-East. Lenningrad, Smolensk, Kiev and Odessa, would expect to get them linked up by the start of the blizzard. My broad aim is to take Lenningrad, Moscow, Rostov and Sevastapol in '41 ready for a blitzkrieg towards Stalingrad and Baku in '42.

[redrum68]

Interesting. So you are using 2 german FBDs + 1 romanian FBD in the south?

[tyronec]

Yes, it gives you a more spread out network of rail lines running East. I suppose if you used the line running from B-L through Minsk it would be similar. I know some players use 3 FBDs in the North, gives less cover in case of partisans.

[tyronec]

AGN take Pskov, Panzers are fueled up so will see hat the Soviets do next turn.
AGC. Clean up the pocketed units from last turn and reseal one of them.
AGS. Setting up to assault Odessa and pocket Nikolaev next turn.

[tyronec]

AGN. Soviets are holding the line. A few attacks failed but manage to push through with the Panzers which should force them to retreat next turn.

AGC. 3 units left behind in the city which get pocketed. Otherwise waiting for the infantry.

AGS. Approaching the river at Kiev. Panzers also up to the river in the South and pocket a couple of units left behind. First two assaults on Odessa.

Soviet strategy seems to be to mass in front of my rail lines and leave much of the rest of the map empty. They have strong forces up near Leningrad, I just have the two full Panzer Corps but have shifted a lot of infantry up to try and take Lenningrad asap.

[eskuche]

6th army in the south may be wasting too much time trying to force a crossing at Kiev with no armor support. Similarly, 11th will be too far delayed if they all stay hammering Odessa. Better to leave a few regiments under 1-2 corps and the army HQ itself with heavy artillery.

[tyronec]

6th army in the south may be wasting too much time trying to force a crossing at Kiev with no armor support. Similarly, 11th will be too far delayed if they all stay hammering Odessa. Better to leave a few regiments under 1-2 corps and the army HQ itself with heavy artillery.

Am not too happy with how AGS is going, in the past I have usually forced the crossing around Kiev on T6 and with Panzers in reserve have often made a pocket. However this game is going differently and as we shall see next move S-T is not trying to hold the line there. IMO he is probably right, there is little to gain and it risks a big pocket.
My rail line goes through Odessa so I have to take it by T7 at the latest. I think I should have sent 1-2 infantry Corps to keep up with PG1, which would have meant shifting something down from maybe 6th Army faster but too late now.

AGN. No counter attack. Soviets hung around on the East side of my incursion and retreated to the river elsewhere.
Make a pocket of 6 divisions and get one unit across the river, my aim is a double thrust here. One towards Lenningrad and the second heading East which will later speed up transferring forces for the assault on Moscow. To keep both of those offensives going have over 3 armies worth of infantry in the area.

AGC. Pocket a division that was left behind and advance into contact, pushing the Soviets out of a couple of hexes in the process.

AGS. 6th Army get up to the river, Kiev was abandoned. Soviets are not in much strength here.
Three assaults on Odessa fail, am not sure why the 2nd one didn't take the city. Good that it will fall next turn but disappointing that the garrison now have the chance to retreat.
Soviets had cut off some of my lead Panzers with a Cav.
Send a few Panzers across the river without combat so they will have to retreat next turn.

Air war.
The Soviets have not been committing to GS so there has not been much action. Axis getting to use their bombers for GS and the Soviets doing not too much, ground bombing my Panzers has fallen away now that my fighters are up at the front. Axis were getting some heavy Interdiction but from this turn we have agreed to limit it to 50% on the air doctrine as we both felt it was a bit excessive.
Overall I would say that playing the game without airfield or massed unit bombing is working well, it is kind of refreshing not to have that part of the game that is clearly broken.

[redrum68]

Ha. Quite literally 1 division short of taking Odessa with that last attack.

[eskuche]

If you go back and check the fort destruction by hovering over the 3.22 -> 0 you’ll see that the initial assault likely didn’t bring fort below 2 (2 plus 2 from high level port for the level 4 fort surrender check). The bonus fort destruction which is equal to eng/art * sqrt(CV) was, however, enough to shred it to zero. Unfortunately the check for retreat happens between these two steps.

If I were making the attack and knew I had overwhelming artillery support, I would have saved a bit more for the third attack and laid off a bit on the second, knowing that the fort would easily be brought below 2 regardless of the actual strength of the attack.

[tyronec]

If you go back and check the fort destruction by hovering over the 3.22 -> 0 you’ll see that the initial assault likely didn’t bring fort below 2 (2 plus 2 from high level port for the level 4 fort surrender check). The bonus fort destruction which is equal to eng/art * sqrt(CV) was, however, enough to shred it to zero. Unfortunately the check for retreat happens between these two steps.

If I were making the attack and knew I had overwhelming artillery support, I would have saved a bit more for the third attack and laid off a bit on the second, knowing that the fort would easily be brought below 2 regardless of the actual strength of the attack.

Had not realised that the bonus fort destruction happened after the check, so thanks for clarifying that.

If I had known I was going to get a bonus fort reduction on the second attack I would have held back some divisions too. That was my 4th attack and previous ones had done around 0.5 of a point each.

[eskuche]

Well since we are here, here is my full disclosure: you can take most level 4 forts by hitting with a sequence of delib attacks from regiments from 3-4 HQ each with 6 SU. Even more for urban (or can use just one HQ) obviously.

1 attack for each of 6-13 MP, etc., will use the full artillery value albeit without bonus fort reduction. This is akin to pre patch Soviet soaking attacks. Then you follow up with a full real attack when the extra attack cost is maxed out. With 18 SUs for a non-urban hex, you can amass 150 art value from heavy howitzers and 15 x 12 from M18 guns = 330 total per attack, discounting pioneers and organic engineering from infantry, so say 375. With 5 of these attacks you knock down .40 of a 4+ level fort, albeit at a heavy manpower cost which will decrease as defenders run out of ammo. In rare circumstances with low garrison (such as a fort zone only) a massed attack relying on bonus fort reduction may work better.

I had hoped to hide this until S-T wasted turns busting down my forts but it is public knowledge now

[Shupov]

[&o]

[tyronec]

AGN. Avoiding the heaviest defensive stacks I swing around to the left. Have done my first HQB for next turn.
2nd Army takes up the offensive on the rail line heading East.

AGC. Just fail to make a pocket. Have a few Panzers in reserve for next turn's offensive. Progress is OK here, just want to get close enough to Moscow to strike before the winter though would be good to do some pocketing.

AGS. Soviets abandon Kiev, 6th Army advance into space continues.
Odessa was abandoned though kill 10k with naval interdiction as they pull out. So progress was good enough to keep the FBDs at full speed.
Pocket the two mech units left behind. That other 2=2 stack were the front line Perekop defence that retreated the wrong way and got pocketed (the retreat bug strikes again). Take two hexes of the strongest Perekop defence line so that defence position is largely done.

[Ramblinman]

So, generally, this seems not quite the same pace of advance for all 3 AGs (relative to the Brian game), and perhaps with less units pocketed (so far)? Maybe 1/2 to 1 turn behind per AG?

If so, would you say this is more your approach (not as aggressive?) as an experimental game, or more ST's defense?

[tyronec]

These are the losses at the and of Axis T8, comparing them with the Brian game (there was a screenshot on T9) the Soviet losses are at a similar rate and Axis losses lower. So fair to say I am not doing so well here which suggests the S-T approach of defending forwards is working well for him. My strategy has been much the same and I don't think I have played particularly better or worse.

For Soviets it is all about conceeding enough ground that there are no big pockets but at the same time no more than is necessary. I have played two other games recently, in one the Soviets got pocketed too much and lost quickly, in the other they retreated too fast and while they had a big army at the start of '42 the balance of power was too much in favor of Axis.

Our air war changes are pro Axis, especially for when the game gets into '42. However up to this point they are pro Soviet because the VVS is too weak to do much yet and Axis have not been able to to all the unit bombing before combat that I did in the Brian game.