Subs on steroids or bug?

[AlvaroSousa]

They are doing multiple attacks on various convoys crossing the Atlantic. It isn't a bug. Atlantic is also the easiest to defend.

Vs a heavy sub German I tend to build 3-4 planes that cover the gap with everything in escort tech and buying escorts. I have 12 per lane.

[sillyflower]

Neither of us has come across this phenomenon before in God-knows how many games. I suspect that there are other areas with multiple convoys too where this problem does not exist.

Seems a bit OTT to me, especially as wolfpack attacks always caused re-routing of other convoys to avoid the area, and uboats aren't very nimble even on the surface where they were relatively easy to spot.

[AlvaroSousa]

It's always been there.

Defending convoys isn't easy. But it must be done.

[Nirosi]

To be honest I have a very hard time defending convoys in 1939 and early 1940. I try to max it out where German subs seem to be going but I have lost in my last two games as the Allies about half the escorts (8 this game for sure and around 6 last one I would say) by the 5th of January 1940 (plus 38 merchants but that seems ok). They (escorts) litteraly sink faster than I can rebuild since they take 7 months.

I am at a loss to undestrand why since I max as much as I can the escorts n convoys. Planes do not reach the lanes yet and CVs never find the sub (0 in 7 tries by now).

I am just extremely unlucky (or opponent lucky) or is there something obvious I do not see? I am almost considering pullign the escorts ot of the convoys.

Thanks for any advice,

[Nirosi]

While I am on the subject, my opponent would like to mention a possible bug. Germany lost an escort in the 39-40 winter (according to a combat report from raiding), but it still has the two escorts from start. He can send screenshots if necessary.

Were are playing with the last non-beta version.

[Flaviusx]

When hunting down subs, try to put together a carrier task force with 3 CVs. You have to mass your own carriers to match wolf packs.

But if your luck is bad early on you may indeed just want to pull escorts off duty until you tech up. 39 convoy tech is piss and especially against 40 subs. Turkey shoot for the subs.

You may also want to bit the bullet and buy a strat bomber with detection tech and research that tech. I usually leave this to the Americans, those birds are super expensive and a bit much for the poor Brits, but if you find yourself on the backfoot you may just have to squeeze in the build and tech. On the plus side: these bombers with their massive range can do things besides hunt subs, so they won't go to waste down the line.

[Nirosi]

Thanks,

I'll try the 3 CVs approach. I bought a strategic bomber already; it is on it's way. In another game I noticed that with 41 tech it almost never found subs (10-15%?) and with 42 tech only about 30-40%. Are those the expected numbers? I just want to make sure, more or less, what to expect.

[Nirosi]

Another question relating to convoys : On page 5, the manual say that merchant marine (points?) represent 200 000 tons of active convoys. This seems strange to me because while trying my best to protect them, I still lost 38 merchands (and 6 escorts) in 1939. That would mean 7 600 000 tons of merchants.

Is it then really 200 000 tons per merchant? Not only that would mean that I lost in 1939 half the total historical loss in the war (about 14 millions), but also that in game terms, the total merchant loss for the "historical" war would only be ~70 merchands which is nothing very serious for the whole war.

Or is it 200 000 toons for a "full convoy" of about 50 merchant points?

[battlevonwar]

People seem to be missing the point 1 sub is raiding 3 nations Convoys on the same hex, on the same turn! That's impossible by game terms and never has happened before. That's the point of the topic.

(not only that would require that 1 sub to have the ability to strike 3 times on the same turn which would be impossible they do not operate like that)

[baloo7777]

In a 3 UBoat wolfpack, is the attack a combined single attack by the whole group or is the computer attacking once for each sub in the group?

[sillyflower]

From the losses I was getting, all 3 subs attack every time.

[AlvaroSousa]

I looked at the data. There is nothing wrong with the action. I PMed you details.

For the public. If you find yourself being slaughtered in the Battle of the Atlantic in 1942 you did something wrong in 1939-1940 as the Allies simply put.

[battlevonwar]

Never seen this, this is interesting. I thought that a pack in 1 hex could only have 1 shot at a convoy. I didn't know they could do multiple attacks in 1 turn. or raid other nation's convoys in say the North Atlantic pipeline to Liverpool?

Need to perhaps modify that in the manual a tiny bit so people understand what can happen. I thought say for instance Russian Convoys only ran in the Artic.

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

I looked at the data. There is nothing wrong with the action. I PMed you details.

For the public. If you find yourself being slaughtered in the Battle of the Atlantic in 1942 you did something wrong in 1939-1940 as the Allies simply put.

[sillyflower]

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

I looked at the data. There is nothing wrong with the action. I PMed you details.

For the public. If you find yourself being slaughtered in the Battle of the Atlantic in 1942 you did something wrong in 1939-1940 as the Allies simply put.

I accept the game is WAD, though the multiple attacks were not something that had been noticed by me or my opponent before. I also appreciate the time that you have spent on this issue.

As to whether my strategy in this game is good enough, time will tell

[AlvaroSousa]

Russian convoys from the UK yes. Russian convoys from the USA no. They run through the Atlantic.

[battlevonwar]

Wow, I suppose my opponent may lack USA ASW or UK ASW? I can assume nothing else. I know vs you I was being ravaged and I started pumping out Convoys and hyper-teching ASW and eventually the bleed off stopped. In this game I nailed nearly 200 convoy/escort vessels with 4 Subs. (I may have lost 300-400-500plus convoys in our game? but my head is fuzzy about the figures, it was a very long game)

I did get lucky with Sub Tech. I'm sure that doesn't happen every game.

In our game what stopped you was the Russians.

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

Russian convoys from the UK yes. Russian convoys from the USA no. They run through the Atlantic.

[Omnius]

I'm still trying to figure out how to make German subs more effective, been trying placing them as separate groups in separate hexes, haven't tried the wolfpack approach yet. I put them in separate hexes to avoid carrier air getting too lucky. I like to spread my subs out to make it more difficult for British carriers to too easily sink them. So far it really looks like German subs are crap early on and the British carriers too effective at finding and sinking them in early 1941. I have yet to see how Germany puts Britain in a bind of having to replace merchant shipping as often as it should be per historical standards. A rather poor modeling of the early German Uboat war.

[AlvaroSousa]

Put them in "very low recon" lane areas.

This is why ports are important.

Put them in groups of 2 or 3.

[kennonlightfoot]

You must have a game with much better CV's than I have played. I have yet to have a CV strike against subs occur on open sea. Best I do is some "+1" results which don't seem to do anything. Only thing I have found that counters U-boats are Escorts set to max advancement. Then its an attrition battle between losing Merchants and Escorts versus German's keeping their U-Boats repaired and at sea (oilers). So far German surface raiders are far more deadly than U-boats.

[Omnius]

@kennonlightfoot,
Must not be doing much CV air versus subs if you haven't seen hit results. I'm in 1941 and the British CV's can really wreck havoc on Axis subs. German Attack subs at '42 level. I think the Naval Air is at '41 level for British. In 1939 British CV air hardly finds German subs but by 1940 that starts to change and by 1941 they score hits rather consistently.