Are Surface Raiders Overpowered?

[kennonlightfoot]

I've been running some tests using Beta version. During over a year of the war UK surface ships have not once engaged a German raider group of any size. While the Gr Surfaces Raiders have been killing merchants at the rate of 10 to 20 merchants per turn. By forming small raider groups (1-3 ships) they are able to hit multiple shipping lanes. The UK apparently can't spot these ships using almost all their navy. Whenever 4-6 UK stacks get adjacent trying to get a double attempt the engaged raider just jumps. Since there are multiple raider stacks the other will get good hits on merchants.

While escorts seem to be balanced against subs, they at least occasionally sink a factor or two of the sub raiders. Surface and CV seem to be useless against surface raiders. The UK can't replace the merchants sunk at the rate the Surface ships are taking them out. The only thing that seems to slow the kill rate is weather and needing to return to the Baltic when the Russians enter.

I am still testing to see how low a level ship is needed to kill merchants (CA probably, still to check DD's). But it things are really the way I am observing, it looks like the Germans should stop building subs and start building surface ships.

[AlvaroSousa]

It also costs them a lot of oil.

[sillyflower]

but I don't think oil is a real problem - none of my opponents have said that and it wasn't in the few axis games I've played. Also, you need hardly any surface ships to sink a LOT of merchants.

[Harrybanana]

I don't know. In a game I am playing now I have the entire German fleet (1BB, 1BC, 2 CAs and 2 DDs I think) raiding and I am only sinking an average of 2 MS total per turn with them. Mind you I am using them in 6 separate 1 ship fleets, maybe I have to combine them into 3 2 ship fleets. I have said it before that in some games my raiders (both subs and surface) are deadly, sinking 6 to 10 MS per turn. Than in other games, using the same system, they sink only 2 to 4 MS per turn.

[kennonlightfoot]

It is very jumpy. Haven't been able to see any pattern to why some turns they are taking names and kicking ass and other turns they can't seem to find it. But the German's are doing way better than the UK. The only thing holding back the Germans is having to be careful not to lose any of their fleet before they have dealt with the Russian fleet. This isn't that difficult though. The UK has so many demands on it's fleets that they can seldom maintain attack groups in the Atlantic for long periods.

In my test game I had broken up the Germans into two fleet stack except for the single Bismarck. The UK finally got their first fleet battle sinking the Hipper CA. But this was on turn of Jan 3, 1941.

If the only cost is oil, it is worth it to cripple the UK's ability to send production to the Russians and use up their production building Merchants. Plus a side benefit of tying down enough UK surface and CV's to take the pressure off the Italians and their fleets in the Mediterranean.

Historically they didn't amount to much. Particularly the heavier ships of which only three attempted to raid. The Bismarck who didn't manage to do anything. The heavy cruisers Admiral Graf Spee and Admiral Scheer. Which I don't think are even represented in the game. Admiral Scheer briefly raided in the Indian Ocean sinking 113,223 tons of shipping making her the most successful of the surface raiders. Spent most of her remaining time as a training ship. The Admiral Graf Spee made more headlines but only lasted four months. Sank 50,000 tons. Germany sent out two waves of smaller surface raiders during WW II. These were ships in the 8,000 to 10,000 ton range, most of which were converted refrigerator ships. Escorts could easily sink these type raiders.

[battlevonwar]

In one game I have 3 surface raiders live and survive 10 strikes, in the same game another 3 died on the first mission? I don't know how to answer this one. I have had this happen quite a bit. I would say if the dice are in your favor and you can afford the oil they can be nice. I would like to be able to disband the fleet if I want as an option at least for the Axis. They are oil eating machines.

[kennonlightfoot]

What I see as the problem with Surface Raiders is they don't have to worry about air power in the game. They can avoid it easily by just staying 10 hexes from the nearest air unit early in the war and raiding further south later. But it was air power, or more correctly air search, that doomed any attempt by the Axis surface fleet from leaving port. They had to sail by the UK and later Iceland and Greenland without being spotted. If they were spotted there was no escape. But in WarPlan air power is useless against raiders because it can't spot and attack a ship in transit. UK Air units are only useful against invasions which will trigger their strikes and even those can be "gamed".

The easiest solution is to make it easier for the UK surface and CV's to spot and sink them. A fleet with a CV attached should be certain death for any surface raider it catches up with.

[sillyflower]

ORIGINAL: battlevonwar

In one game I have 3 surface raiders live and survive 10 strikes, in the same game another 3 died on the first mission? I don't know how to answer this one.

In the 1st game your ships were in raider mode. In 2nd they must have been in normal mode

[battlevonwar]

You sank the Bismark in Raider mode in the first Try... [:D]

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

ORIGINAL: battlevonwar

In one game I have 3 surface raiders live and survive 10 strikes, in the same game another 3 died on the first mission? I don't know how to answer this one.

In the 1st game your ships were in raider mode. In 2nd they must have been in normal mode

[kennonlightfoot]

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

I don't know. In a game I am playing now I have the entire German fleet (1BB, 1BC, 2 CAs and 2 DDs I think) raiding and I am only sinking an average of 2 MS total per turn with them. Mind you I am using them in 6 separate 1 ship fleets, maybe I have to combine them into 3 2 ship fleets. I have said it before that in some games my raiders (both subs and surface) are deadly, sinking 6 to 10 MS per turn. Than in other games, using the same system, they sink only 2 to 4 MS per turn.

I've had mixed results with dispersing the fleets. It does make them harder to spot or at least that is my understanding. But I have seen lone DD's take out merchant almost at the same rate as BB's. But the random results make it hard to compare single unit versus multi unit Raiders. But it does have one good side effect for the German, it gives the UK fleets to many targets to try to force to move to avoid a double attempt turn. So a dispersal of six usually means the only one or two have to move between turns. That gives the other 4 or 5 twice the chance of multiple merchant hits.

Even if it turns out there is a difference in effectiveness of DD's vs the CA's and BB's, the UK doesn't know which ones are which and will waste resource attacking the DD's.