Ooops, I did it again (Lowpe (J) vs ?(A)

[RangerJoe]

You might want to check the map, I don't know why but there seems to be some errors. I don't know if it is my map or the mod.

From Gifu to Maizeru on Honshu, my hexside has a blue border?[&:] Gifu has no port nor the ability to make one.
Bacolod, on the island between Cebu and Panay, has a blue border to the west even though there is a yellow road there.[&:] So you can't capture that other city on the island and walk to Bacolod. That confused me for a couple of turns, why wasn't the unit moving?[&:][:@]

On Luzon, there is no road from Lingayen to Iba. The road goes NW, then S to Iba. There is no road from Iba to Clark.

I thought that I did a fresh install, then the updates to the latest alpha then the beta. I removed the old AI files, put in the new ones. I loaded the scenario 2V6 which is what I am playing right now. I have never used the editor for the game.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Having done the R&D for the Rufe, I decide to look at what starts...one squadron on a very serious AMC...an AndyMac Q ship. Oh my.[X(]

I knew she was here, having run into her in my other game.[;)]

Obviously, this squadron needs to get to a CS and be resized, where this early will make potent added aerial defense for the mini kb that normally prowls the SRA.

She starts in the Marshalls and is loaded with troops for the Wake Invasion.





A really super impressive ship. What was Andy thinking?

It does not have enough torpedoes nor torpedo tubes. Think if it found a carrier group, surprised them, and then starting launching torpedoes . . . [X(]

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

So, then the next plane I want asap is Tojo IIa. So I cherry pick those r&d facilities with supply. Tojo IIa comes in 9/42, which is so long away.[:)] I need 10 factories here too. Argh, I generally never put more than 5 in her.

Well, that means once I get the Tojo IIc (if I go for it which is most likely) it will free up r&d for the final generation fighters.

I also need to crank up the Ha 34 engines to get the 500 engine bonus....when the first factory reaches fully repaired.

I would like to make 150(?) a month normally, and...so I am thinking of having one big factory at 150, and letting the other 9 jump into the IIc and then something else. Since I am not going Oscar at all, I bet I will need 220 minimum, and if I am going 220, maybe I should go 300 right off the bat?

The fighter will be the primary Army fighter till June/July of 1943 when the Frank A comes, but it will always be useful if not optimal.

So, since this is scenario 2...I am thinking one size 300, 9 size 30 plus engine bonus. I might get the fighter 5 months early maybe?

Once you get the Tojo in, you can expand the factory more as needed. You can also switch some of those small production facilities to another aircraft such as the Tojo. But once you get the Frank, are you going to need to produce the Tojo? If not, more but smaller factories since switching them to another air frame will take less time.

As far as the Oscar goes, once the Zero line leaves the Ha-35 engine, then what will you do with those engine factories? If nothing else, the later marks of the Oscar may then be usable but not necessarily researched heavily, if at all. Or do you research the kamikaze planes.

Which is better, the Tojo IIc or the Ki-100 Tonies? The later Tonies have all cannons and an SR of 1 which is nice for a daily air frame. So if you end up ditching the Tojo for the later Tonies, then what happens to a super large Ha-34 engine factory? It will take a long time to switch it to another engine.

The reason why I am asking is because I have never gone that far into the game on either side and I would like to learn. Then maybe, if I get a better computer and the felines let me, I may try PBEM games.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Once you get the Tojo in, you can expand the factory more as needed. You can also switch some of those small production facilities to another aircraft such as the Tojo. But once you get the Frank, are you going to need to produce the Tojo? If not, more but smaller factories since switching them to another air frame will take less time.

As far as the Oscar goes, once the Zero line leaves the Ha-35 engine, then what will you do with those engine factories? If nothing else, the later marks of the Oscar may then be usable but not necessarily researched heavily, if at all. Or do you research the kamikaze planes.

Which is better, the Tojo IIc or the Ki-100 Tonies? The later Tonies have all cannons and an SR of 1 which is nice for a daily air frame. So if you end up ditching the Tojo for the later Tonies, then what happens to a super large Ha-34 engine factory? It will take a long time to switch it to another engine.

The reason why I am asking is because I have never gone that far into the game on either side and I would like to learn. Then maybe, if I get a better computer and the felines let me, I may try PBEM games.

Nope, Tojo factory really needs to start max production...what that will be not certain yet, but surely in the 220 to 300 range. In fact all r&d planes need to start at near to their final production numbers.

Tojo is important even with Frank. In a defensive setting multiple frames act synergistically if you set them correctly. Low layer cap in 1943 would be A6M8 down low, next layer Tojo IIc, and top layer Frank A. What I miss is a longer range fighter escort Frank can get only 10 hexes and I have to wait till mid 43 for it. I am thinking in throwing out all the rules and using George as my bomber escort.[X(]

I would take Tojo IIc over Tony, especially in stock. IIc is a more versatile plane, and better everywhere, except for deep defense 4E interception...but that is what FB are for when the Tony arrives. Tony is almost worthless. Absolutely nothing anybody says can change my mind on the Tony...I have used them both in stock and in Symons mod.

So what if an engine factory become relatively worthless at the end game, if it gets you to the endgame?

It is very difficult to prevent Honshu from being strategically bombed in 1944. And unlike most AFBs, Lok knows what to bomb and at 2k feet.

You are ready for pbem, start a game already.

[RangerJoe]

So what if an engine factory become relatively worthless at the end game, if it gets you to the endgame?

It is very difficult to prevent Honshu from being strategically bombed in 1944. And unlike most AFBs, Lok knows what to bomb and at 2k feet.

You are ready for pbem, start a game already.

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Once you get the Tojo in, you can expand the factory more as needed. You can also switch some of those small production facilities to another aircraft such as the Tojo. But once you get the Frank, are you going to need to produce the Tojo? If not, more but smaller factories since switching them to another air frame will take less time.

As far as the Oscar goes, once the Zero line leaves the Ha-35 engine, then what will you do with those engine factories? If nothing else, the later marks of the Oscar may then be usable but not necessarily researched heavily, if at all. Or do you research the kamikaze planes.

Which is better, the Tojo IIc or the Ki-100 Tonies? The later Tonies have all cannons and an SR of 1 which is nice for a daily air frame. So if you end up ditching the Tojo for the later Tonies, then what happens to a super large Ha-34 engine factory? It will take a long time to switch it to another engine.

The reason why I am asking is because I have never gone that far into the game on either side and I would like to learn. Then maybe, if I get a better computer and the felines let me, I may try PBEM games.

Nope, Tojo factory really needs to start max production...what that will be not certain yet, but surely in the 220 to 300 range. In fact all r&d planes need to start at near to their final production numbers.

Tojo is important even with Frank. In a defensive setting multiple frames act synergistically if you set them correctly. Low layer cap in 1943 would be A6M8 down low, next layer Tojo IIc, and top layer Frank A. What I miss is a longer range fighter escort Frank can get only 10 hexes and I have to wait till mid 43 for it. I am thinking in throwing out all the rules and using George as my bomber escort.[X(]

I would take Tojo IIc over Tony, especially in stock. IIc is a more versatile plane, and better everywhere, except for deep defense 4E interception...but that is what FB are for when the Tony arrives. Tony is almost worthless. Absolutely nothing anybody says can change my mind on the Tony...I have used them both in stock and in Symons mod.

So what if an engine factory become relatively worthless at the end game, if it gets you to the endgame?

It is very difficult to prevent Honshu from being strategically bombed in 1944. And unlike most AFBs, Lok knows what to bomb and at 2k feet.

You are ready for pbem, start a game already.

My computer is a Dell laptop with no battery. It thus runs at 1/3 speed. The power goes out and I lose everything. For some of the keys when pressed, they do not register until I hit them very hard. A new computer will enhance my enjoyment. Sweat Pea likes to lay on my chest - she will walk on the computer to do so. [:(] I sit in a recliner with the computer on my chest. It is easier on my eyes with the glasses that I have, I usually don't wear glasses then.

Nothing wrong with a worthless aircraft factory at the end game. I need to get there against the AI for learning purposes.

I may be ready for PBEM, but my apartment is not. I appreciate your confidence in me.

I have never fought into 1943 without the AI surrendering.

I also need to decide which side to mangle first.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Plane r&d

12 Sam
10 Frank
10 Rufe

10 Shinden
5 Ki 94

10 Tojo IIa

5 Nick A
5 Randy FB

10 Judy
1 Jill

2 Irving S
2 Nick D
2 Frances S
1 A6M S

? Frances
? Peggy T Can I get to 5 somehow?
1 Lilly DB

To go along with this plane r&d we will be accelerating our carriers somewhat ridiculously at the cost of subs and battleships. I think I am going to have to expand naval factories to do it, as there are quite a few additional ships in the build que.

What do you guys think?

I'd cut the Rufe down a bit. 10 seems excessive. 5 will get you the A6M5c in early '43, which is plenty early for your purposes.

Ditch the Tojo - you know my views on that airframe. Bite the bullet, you can hold the line with the Zero, Oscar and Nick till the George/Jack bolsters out the air war.

The fighter model of the Randy is worth considering if you're stacking for a late-war game.

5 on the Nick A is overkill - it arrives fairly early and the subsequent models are not any sort of improvement.

10 on the Judy is also overkill, you'll be able to get the Y1 model repair and progressing the Y4 model fairly early in the game.

You also need the Grace - while the Judy 4 is better in the dive bomber role, the Grace is massively better in the torpedo bomber role than the Jill. The extra speed matters.

I think you can drop the Zero NF if you're doing the Irving and the Frances.

Frances and Peggy I both like. You can get away with skimping on the Lily DB as it arrives early enough.

While I agree you can cut out the patrols, I'd definitely consider trying to move the Myrt recon forward. The Judy-C arrives at a good date and is a yeoman-like recon airframe, but the Myrt is a different beast with that 29 hex range.

No Patsy?

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Plane r&d

12 Sam
10 Frank
10 Rufe

10 Shinden
5 Ki 94

10 Tojo IIa

5 Nick A
5 Randy FB

10 Judy
1 Jill

2 Irving S
2 Nick D
2 Frances S
1 A6M S

? Frances
? Peggy T Can I get to 5 somehow?
1 Lilly DB

To go along with this plane r&d we will be accelerating our carriers somewhat ridiculously at the cost of subs and battleships. I think I am going to have to expand naval factories to do it, as there are quite a few additional ships in the build que.

What do you guys think?

I'd cut the Rufe down a bit. 10 seems excessive. 5 will get you the A6M5c in early '43, which is plenty early for your purposes.

Ditch the Tojo - you know my views on that airframe. Bite the bullet, you can hold the line with the Zero, Oscar and Nick till the George/Jack bolsters out the air war.

The fighter model of the Randy is worth considering if you're stacking for a late-war game.

5 on the Nick A is overkill - it arrives fairly early and the subsequent models are not any sort of improvement.

10 on the Judy is also overkill, you'll be able to get the Y1 model repair and progressing the Y4 model fairly early in the game.

You also need the Grace - while the Judy 4 is better in the dive bomber role, the Grace is massively better in the torpedo bomber role than the Jill. The extra speed matters.

I think you can drop the Zero NF if you're doing the Irving and the Frances.

Frances and Peggy I both like. You can get away with skimping on the Lily DB as it arrives early enough.

While I agree you can cut out the patrols, I'd definitely consider trying to move the Myrt recon forward. The Judy-C arrives at a good date and is a yeoman-like recon airframe, but the Myrt is a different beast with that 29 hex range.

No Patsy?

That input means a lot coming from you M-M.

I don't want the 5 so much as I want the 8 early. Really early. I would like to go 15 factories on it.[X(]

Ditching the Tojo...I was planning on using them to sweep close in air bases. Nothing else can sweep like Tojo this early. I would like to get the A6M8 earlier than the George/Jack, I figured I would need the limited offense Tojo provides to see me to 1943. I don't see how I can get the M8 early, and give up the Tojo.

I am thinking I might rotate the Judy factories to Grace once the 4 is finished. I kind of planned on skipping the 1 totally.

The Zero NF is simply to get the ability to resize NF squadrons a bit earlier if I really screw up. Insurance.

Myrt Recon is definitely a wanted plane...just not sure how to fit it in at game start.

I would like the Patsy and also the ki95.

Part of the problem with Myrt/Patsy/Ki95 is that I don't want to allocate too much to the very late game this early. I should have a plethora of Frank/Judy/Zero/Tojo factories to roll over into them -- add Grace to that list.

[RangerJoe]

I have 12 factories going for the A6M5 with the engine bonus. [:D]

I am expanding my Ha-33 factories. Not having played into the late game or even into 1943, I might continue this one or start over with some different ground rules for me.

At least I captured Palembang early with only 20 points off the oil and refinery. Balikpapen and Samerinda intact, Tarakan only 27 points of damage each. Miri and Brunei, no damage other than the starting oil. Manila completely trashed. Hong Kong about half trashed.

I did not take Singkawang soon enough, putting bombers there, and the Territorials got to Singapore. Otherwise I would have taken it much sooner than the end of January. I distracted myself taking out the Malaya Army units.

But I have sunk 11 BBs plus the Repulse, the Big E, and the Lady Lex. It is early March and I just took Batavia and have invested Ambon. I have Makassar with torpedo carrying Kates there and Zeroes for escort. I have torpedo planes at Kalidjati for that end, of Java. [:D]

But I need to learn to pick up the pace. [:(]

[RADM.Yamaguchi]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

So, then the next plane I want asap is Tojo IIa. So I cherry pick those r&d facilities with supply. Tojo IIa comes in 9/42, which is so long away.[:)] I need 10 factories here too. Argh, I generally never put more than 5 in her.

Well, that means once I get the Tojo IIc (if I go for it which is most likely) it will free up r&d for the final generation fighters.

I also need to crank up the Ha 34 engines to get the 500 engine bonus....when the first factory reaches fully repaired.

I would like to make 150(?) a month normally, and...so I am thinking of having one big factory at 150, and letting the other 9 jump into the IIc and then something else. Since I am not going Oscar at all, I bet I will need 220 minimum, and if I am going 220, maybe I should go 300 right off the bat?

The fighter will be the primary Army fighter till June/July of 1943 when the Frank A comes, but it will always be useful if not optimal.

So, since this is scenario 2...I am thinking one size 300, 9 size 30 plus engine bonus. I might get the fighter 5 months early maybe?

in my current PBEM stock scen 2 i went 9x30 on ki-44a and ended up with ki-44c by 6/15/42. It's very nice. almost invulnerable at this point in the game. I never went down the tony line although i have been told that i should have. Much too late to do anything about that now.

[RADM.Yamaguchi]

I see Lowpe going for the A6M8 and Joe going for the A6M5c. Would somebody please tell me which to do????? Next time???? I got A6M5c on 6/18/42 and i like it but am i missing something on the A6M8. Pretty sure it's too late to do anything about that either.

[Lowpe]

There really is no right answer for everyone. Some people use bishops better than knights. And the opposite.

But the AI doesn't sweep.

[Anachro]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

There really is no right answer for everyone. Some people use bishops better than knights. And the opposite.

But a bishop pair is slightly better than the opposite. [:D]

[RADM.Yamaguchi]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

But the AI doesn't sweep.

I've never played the AI more than a few turns. That seems crazy to me.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Plane r&d

12 Sam
10 Frank
10 Rufe

10 Shinden
5 Ki 94

10 Tojo IIa

5 Nick A
5 Randy FB

10 Judy
1 Jill

2 Irving S
2 Nick D
2 Frances S
1 A6M S

? Frances
? Peggy T Can I get to 5 somehow?
1 Lilly DB

To go along with this plane r&d we will be accelerating our carriers somewhat ridiculously at the cost of subs and battleships. I think I am going to have to expand naval factories to do it, as there are quite a few additional ships in the build que.

What do you guys think?

I'd cut the Rufe down a bit. 10 seems excessive. 5 will get you the A6M5c in early '43, which is plenty early for your purposes.

Ditch the Tojo - you know my views on that airframe. Bite the bullet, you can hold the line with the Zero, Oscar and Nick till the George/Jack bolsters out the air war.

The fighter model of the Randy is worth considering if you're stacking for a late-war game.

5 on the Nick A is overkill - it arrives fairly early and the subsequent models are not any sort of improvement.

10 on the Judy is also overkill, you'll be able to get the Y1 model repair and progressing the Y4 model fairly early in the game.

You also need the Grace - while the Judy 4 is better in the dive bomber role, the Grace is massively better in the torpedo bomber role than the Jill. The extra speed matters.

I think you can drop the Zero NF if you're doing the Irving and the Frances.

Frances and Peggy I both like. You can get away with skimping on the Lily DB as it arrives early enough.

While I agree you can cut out the patrols, I'd definitely consider trying to move the Myrt recon forward. The Judy-C arrives at a good date and is a yeoman-like recon airframe, but the Myrt is a different beast with that 29 hex range.

No Patsy?

That input means a lot coming from you M-M.

I don't want the 5 so much as I want the 8 early. Really early. I would like to go 15 factories on it.[X(]

I am not sold on the return on that decision.

The A6M8, despite it's late arrival date, is still a Zero airframe. Even a late '42 or early '43 (IOW, getting it very early) will still find it outclassed by Corsair/Lightings.

Better in my mind to get the M5c for the armament and armour and trying to get another airframe that is a genuine step above the Zero.

Ditching the Tojo...I was planning on using them to sweep close in air bases. Nothing else can sweep like Tojo this early. I would like to get the A6M8 earlier than the George/Jack, I figured I would need the limited offense Tojo provides to see me to 1943. I don't see how I can get the M8 early, and give up the Tojo.

What close in air-bases are you likely to be sweeping in 1942? Burma and possibly China are the only two that spring to mind. The short legs on the Tojo makes using it in the Pacific an exercise in frustration.

Sweeps also depend on your opponent being willing to oppose your sweeps - Loka is fond of playing dead in the air war until he has a massive advantage.

I am thinking I might rotate the Judy factories to Grace once the 4 is finished. I kind of planned on skipping the 1 totally.

I normally put the 1 into production until the 4 arrives, as that typically takes some time to bring forward from it's later arrival date even with several R&D factories and the Val needs to be replaced ASAP.

The Zero NF is simply to get the ability to resize NF squadrons a bit earlier if I really screw up. Insurance.

I don't think that's really needed, at least I don't remember having any issues with it in my game despite not building it.

Myrt Recon is definitely a wanted plane...just not sure how to fit it in at game start.

I would like the Patsy and also the ki95.

Part of the problem with Myrt/Patsy/Ki95 is that I don't want to allocate too much to the very late game this early. I should have a plethora of Frank/Judy/Zero/Tojo factories to roll over into them -- add Grace to that list.

I think you need to be really quite ruthless in deciding what you *need* and what is nice to have.

For me, the later Zero models and Tojo fall in the nice to have category.

ORIGINAL: RADM.Yamaguchi

I see Lowpe going for the A6M8 and Joe going for the A6M5c. Would somebody please tell me which to do????? Next time???? I got A6M5c on 6/18/42 and i like it but am i missing something on the A6M8. Pretty sure it's too late to do anything about that either.

Look at the stats and judge for yourself.

The A6M8 is a decent plane, but hopelessly outdated at it's scheduled arrival date. A large investment can bring it forward to a date that makes it more competitive, but at the end of the day it is still a Zero airframe and suffers the same weaknesses as the previous Zero models.

I, for one, don't quite understand what makes it worth the effort as there are plenty of other airframes that generate a greater return for the R&D effort invested.

However, more than one way to play AE>

[RADM.Yamaguchi]

I got the A6M5c in time for my big CV vs CV battle in 9/42 and i think it really helped my bombers get through on escort and saved a little on CAP too. Now i don't need to even think about naval fighters til i can get SAM whenever i can. won't be for a long time though.

[Lowpe]

Final R&D, for good or ill.

12 Sam
10 Rufe
10 Frank
9 Judy

6 George
6 Tojo

5 Shinden
2 Ki 94

2 Frances S
2 Nick D
2 Irving S
1 Kai Dinah
1 Zero S
2 Peggy I

1 Rex

3 Nick A
1 Randy B

1 Frances
2 Peggy T

1 Grace
1 Myrt

2nd Generation r&d will go Grace. After that I don't know at this point, but there will be a lot of factories capable of switching, and some of them quite early.

I have a phobia of being underprepared for the night fighting campaign, Peggy I is a test.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Final R&D, for good or ill.

12 Sam
10 Rufe
10 Frank
9 Judy

6 George
6 Tojo

5 Shinden
2 Ki 94

2 Frances S
2 Nick D
2 Irving S
1 Kai Dinah
1 Zero S
2 Peggy I

1 Rex

3 Nick A
1 Randy B

1 Frances
2 Peggy T

1 Grace
1 Myrt

2nd Generation r&d will go Grace. After that I don't know at this point, but there will be a lot of factories capable of switching, and some of them quite early.

I will be interested to see how this plays out for you.

What's your logic on the Rex? Not sure I see the value in it given its only a marginal improvement over the Rufe (and a 7/43 arrival date seems fairly early enough for me that I'd never want to invest the factory in bringing it forward...).

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


I will be interested to see how this plays out for you.

What's your logic on the Rex? Not sure I see the value in it given its only a marginal improvement over the Rufe (and a 7/43 arrival date seems fairly early enough for me that I'd never want to invest the factory in bringing it forward...).

So will I.[:)] Part of the rational is to do something different. [;)]

Rex...I have always done well with Rufes and Rex flying low CAP in CV fights. For whatever reason, they seem to always hit the bombers, I guess because the fighters are all dogfighting above them. Since this is a r&d program looking to have some key CV clashes I wanted to maximize the KB strength if only marginally. I also like to play lots of games with the float fighters.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


I will be interested to see how this plays out for you.

What's your logic on the Rex? Not sure I see the value in it given its only a marginal improvement over the Rufe (and a 7/43 arrival date seems fairly early enough for me that I'd never want to invest the factory in bringing it forward...).

So will I.[:)] Part of the rational is to do something different. [;)]

Rex...I have always done well with Rufes and Rex flying low CAP in CV fights. For whatever reason, they seem to always hit the bombers, I guess because the fighters are all dogfighting above them. Since this is a r&d program looking to have some key CV clashes I wanted to maximize the KB strength if only marginally. I also like to play lots of games with the float fighters.

I take it then, you won't be converting the CS hulls to CVL?

Iiiiiinteresting....

[jdsrae]

9 on Judy jumped out at me as something I’ll look at next time.

Last weekend I spent a bit of time weighing up the pros and cons of the Judy models as the Judy-1 just started production for me 1/43.
I’m building a few Judy-1 to replace the Vals, but in hindsight I would have been better off going straight for the Judy-4.
I’ve only got 4x30 on Judy-4 now so it should arrive in 7/43 for me with engine bonus.
9x 30 without getting the Judy-1 first would get it when, late 42 or early 43?