Did You Know I Used to Drive a Rollercoaster?: Apbarog(A) vs OPilot(J)

[Lowpe]

[quote]ORIGINAL: apbarog

I'm still trying to upgrade the last third of a US infantry division. The "A" and "B" parts upgraded immediately, awhile ago, but part "C" has not upgraded. Its 37mm guns are supposed to upgrade to 57mm M1A3 AT guns (see top of this page for the graphic). The pool now has 27 of the 57mm guns. I've noticed that the 57mm gun in the pool is available to not only US Army units, but also US Marines, New Zealand, British, Commonwealth and Canadian units. I've turned off upgrades for all of these nationalities.

But I've discovered something. For the unit in question, there is no "=" symbol by the gun, denoting that there are not enough guns in the pool for an upgrade. (Based on my understanding). I'd think there are enough, if it needs 19 and has 27 in the pool. However, I split a US Marine division, just to see what it looks like, and it can upgrade it's parts. But it needs just 12 of the 57mm guns to upgrade. So my theory is that the number needed in the pool is not exactly the number required, but something else. Maybe twice the number required. Just a theory.

So, I'll wait longer and see when the unit upgrades so in this example 19.

Something is wrong, not enough supply pops to mind immediately (but you mentioned lots, but I think it needs to be excess supply).[quote]

Not my understanding, you only sufficient pools to cover the number of devices currently in the unit.

[apbarog]

They are at Takao, which has more than 350k supply, and needs just 15k. Back when I originally split the division, I did so to upgrade the 1943 squads to 1944 squads. "A" and "B" did so immediately, as well as upgrading the guns in question. "C" upgraded the squads fine, but there weren't enough 57mm guns in the pool at the time. So, the location worked for "A" and "B". It has to be related to the number in the pool. As I said, I experimented and split a Marine division on Luzon. Each part of it only requires 12 of the 57mm guns to upgrade, and all 3 parts have a "=" by it, so I believe that they would upgrade immediately.

The "C" part of the divison on Takao, the unit in question, does not have a "=" by it, despite there being now 27 guns in the pool and only 19 are needed.

[Alamander]

Upgrades have a random attached to them. I had a unit, in a major base with 10K plus supply, waiting to upgrade from type 94 light tanks to type 95 for almost 2 weeks. There were plenty of devices in the pool and plenty of vehicle points (not an issue for the allied player). It finally upgraded today.

I think the "administration" rating of the unit leader is factored into the random. When you divide a division, you usually get sub-par leaders for the /b and /c elements. Try changing the leader for the unit to a leader with a higher administration rating.

Your current officer, Lt. Daly, has a 45 administration rating, I see, from the image above. I just checked my officer who could not seem to fill out the proper requisition forms for 2 weeks. His administration rating is 38. He's a Japanese cavalry officer, and they were not famous for being adept at paperwork... lol.

[Lowpe]

Even with a bad leader the = should appear. Not upgrades are even turned off here, however the device is not being stockpiled.

[Lowpe]

I suggest you post it in tech support or general forum.

[apbarog]

16 Feb 44

Two US YMS's continued to sweep mines at Hong Kong. Another one won't be coming home. Battleships continue to bombard the base. Today, 3 battleship TFs will hit Hong Kong. With fewer than 20k enemy troops there, I think it will fall rather quickly. US troops are approaching from the east, but not in numbers to both move into Hong Kong and protect the hex between Hong Kong and Canton. There's still almost 80k enemy troops at Canton. It would be easy for them to move out and cut off whatever I just moved into Hong Kong. So, the Americans will concentrate on clearing the enemy to the east of Canton. The British, primarily, will move on Hong Kong. They are now moving out of Swatow.

Another good day of fighter sweeps at Rabaul. OPilot moved a big Zero unit from Truk to Rabaul, but they can manhandled by the Allied fighters. B-24s did minor damage to Rabaul's airfield and port, but they did sink 2 ACMs in port.

Total air losses were 15 Zeros, 8 Tojos and 1 Oscar for the cost of 5 Spitfires, 3 F4U-1s and 3 P-38s.

US troops practically destroyed an already defeated enemy brigade east of Hong Kong. 1549 enemy casualties with almost all being destroyed squads and devices. Cleanup continued at Pescadores, with another unit being eliminated with 1742 casualties. Just one unit remains, the Bako Special Base Force, I believe.

As for the upgrading problem, I split a different US infantry division. It has the same configuration as the problem division, showing a need for 19 57mm guns to upgrade. It also does not have a "=" by it. The Marine division that I checked before does have the "=" by the guns, and it needs just 12 of them. I currently have 27.

I will keep monitoring the problem division as the 57mm guns accumulate in the pool.

[Alamander]

The = sign does not always appear. For example, Japanese sound detectors on the Home Islands never show the = in Dababes, but they will upgrade. I am not an expert on the editor and have never messed around in it, but I believe it has something to do with not setting an ugrade path for the device in the unit. The device, however, still has a general upgrade path. According to an old post by PaxMondo, the game is more reticent to upgrade devices when there is not upgrade path set for the device in the unit, but it will still upgrade, eventually, along the normal upgrade path for the device. I looked for posts the other day along these lines because I had the same trouble with my tank unit and found the old post by Pax, but I cannot find it now.

As an aside, my tank unit did have the = for the type 94s. It did not have the = for the type 97 medium tanks, however, because I set the type 1s (the upgrade to the 97) to stockpile, because I did not want the unit to upgrade its type 97s, only its type 94s. (If you follow me).

[apbarog]

Thanks Alamander. I'll give it more time to sort out. Worst case scenario is that I can't upgrade the guns, and therefore can't recombine the parts of the division. They are planning for Okinawa, which is next on my list of invasions. They'll go, one way or the other.

[Lowpe]

It is device 1308 and 1309 with a clear upgrade path...

[Alamander]

Yes for the general device... but is the upgrade path for that device entered into the unit information as well? And if so, is that information then transferred to the /c element when the division is divided? That may be the crux of the problem. If that is the problem, it should eventually upgrade; it is just slower to do so.

I found the old post by Pax in which he explains that if the device does not have an upgrade path in the unit ToE, it is much slower to upgrade. Here is a link to the discussion on this issue.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.a ... e&#4268105

[BBfanboy]

If you haven't already tried it, sometimes putting them in rest/training mode seems to make the upgrade happen sooner. Whether that is because of a check of the upgrade path and fixing any missing TOE items I don't know.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: Alamander

Yes for the general device... but is the upgrade path for that device entered into the unit information as well? And if so, is that information then transferred to the /c element when the division is divided? That may be the crux of the problem. If that is the problem, it should eventually upgrade; it is just slower to do so.

I found the old post by Pax in which he explains that if the device does not have an upgrade path in the unit ToE, it is much slower to upgrade. Here is a link to the discussion on this issue.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.a ... ade�

Not really applicable to this case, at the time there were loads of mistakes especially in the Japanese OOB hitting hard AA guns especially I recall.

If what you say was applicable in this case, it would effect the A/B/C fractional units not just one of the fractional units.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

If you haven't already tried it, sometimes putting them in rest/training mode seems to make the upgrade happen sooner. Whether that is because of a check of the upgrade path and fixing any missing TOE items I don't know.

Pretty sure he did that, I would move to another location and see if that resets the calculation, but he might have done that too.

[apbarog]

17 Feb 44

Mine clearing continued at Hong Kong, as did the slow US battleship bombardments. Over 1500 casualties there. It's been brutal. Having AKEs at nearby Swatow means that most of the time, the battleships can bombard every day. Once Hong Kong is taken, cruisers will be based there and will start bombarding Canton, up the river, every day.

US fighters swept Rabaul again but found no enemy planes. US bombers did minor damage to the airfield.

Lots of enemy bombers hit the Chinese at Ichang. P-47s and P-38s were there on LRCAP, and did well, but couldn't stop all the bombers. B-24s returned the favor, hitting enemy troops at Ichang. Lots of US bombers hitting the trapped enemy pocket at Canton/Hong Kong. Kanhsien was hit also.

Total air losses were 12 Oscars, 10 Nicks, 7 Sonias, 1 Peggy and 1 Sally, for the cost of 3 P-38s and 2 P-47s.

Enemy counter attack north of Sian failed. Both sides are attempting to reinforce here. One of the Chinese corp here is trying to leave to the west, with all squads disabled from the initial river crossing. I had given the one undamaged Chinese corp a very good leader yesterday, and it made a difference.

Ground combat at 82,39 (near Sian)

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 27126 troops, 238 guns, 48 vehicles, Assault Value = 751

Defending force 19004 troops, 140 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 341

Japanese adjusted assault: 384

Allied adjusted defense: 841

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 2

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), op mode(-), leaders(+), experience(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
3635 casualties reported
Squads: 15 destroyed, 377 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 20 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 12 disabled

Allied ground losses:
396 casualties reported
Squads: 33 destroyed, 7 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Assaulting units:
110th Division
24th Division
North China Area Army

Defending units:
29th Chinese Corps
95th Chinese Corps
8th Group Army

The last enemy on Pescadores was eliminated. Two US divisions, two artillery units, and an amphibious support unit will be picked up and taken back to Manila to prepare for Japan. Transports were waiting at nearby Takao for this.

[apbarog]

18 Feb 44

More of the same bombing today. It does look like there is something lurking between Shanghai and Japan. The same 2 US subs in that area that had 10/10 DL yesterday had it again today, and a float plane attacked one.

Troops are reloading at Pescadores to go back to Manila to rest and prep for Japan. A huge number of Allied troops will move out of Swatow today, alleviating the over-stacking problem there. Not that it is a problem, really. The Chinese invasion bases have over 250k supply, despite supply being pulled into the Chinese interior.

Finally! The upgrade issue with the US infantry division on Takao resolved itself, with the "C" part upgrading to the 57mm guns. 19 guns were drawn from the pool. It did so with 9 extra guns in the pool, which is coincidentally the same number in the pool after the "A" and "B" parts upgraded on the same day. Probably just a random chance of upgrading. Maybe a very wild guess theory that the pool has 9 guns in it but thinks it has 0. Who knows. All I know is that the problem is resolved. I've put the 57mm guns in the pool back on stockpiling, so that this doesn't occur with other units, and I can continue upgrading them otherwise.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: apbarog

18 Feb 44

More of the same bombing today. It does look like there is something lurking between Shanghai and Japan. The same 2 US subs in that area that had 10/10 DL yesterday had it again today, and a float plane attacked one.

Troops are reloading at Pescadores to go back to Manila to rest and prep for Japan. A huge number of Allied troops will move out of Swatow today, alleviating the over-stacking problem there. Not that it is a problem, really. The Chinese invasion bases have over 250k supply, despite supply being pulled into the Chinese interior.

Finally! The upgrade issue with the US infantry division on Takao resolved itself, with the "C" part upgrading to the 57mm guns. 19 guns were drawn from the pool. It did so with 9 extra guns in the pool, which is coincidentally the same number in the pool after the "A" and "B" parts upgraded on the same day. Probably just a random chance of upgrading. Maybe a very wild guess theory that the pool has 9 guns in it but thinks it has 0. Who knows. All I know is that the problem is resolved. I've put the 57mm guns in the pool back on stockpiling, so that this doesn't occur with other units, and I can continue upgrading them otherwise.

Could those 9 guns be today's production, or even this week's production? Maybe this is like picking up resources at a port that also produces them and no matter how much you try you never get to 0 because today's production cannot be loaded until tomorrow.

[apbarog]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: apbarog

18 Feb 44

More of the same bombing today. It does look like there is something lurking between Shanghai and Japan. The same 2 US subs in that area that had 10/10 DL yesterday had it again today, and a float plane attacked one.

Troops are reloading at Pescadores to go back to Manila to rest and prep for Japan. A huge number of Allied troops will move out of Swatow today, alleviating the over-stacking problem there. Not that it is a problem, really. The Chinese invasion bases have over 250k supply, despite supply being pulled into the Chinese interior.

Finally! The upgrade issue with the US infantry division on Takao resolved itself, with the "C" part upgrading to the 57mm guns. 19 guns were drawn from the pool. It did so with 9 extra guns in the pool, which is coincidentally the same number in the pool after the "A" and "B" parts upgraded on the same day. Probably just a random chance of upgrading. Maybe a very wild guess theory that the pool has 9 guns in it but thinks it has 0. Who knows. All I know is that the problem is resolved. I've put the 57mm guns in the pool back on stockpiling, so that this doesn't occur with other units, and I can continue upgrading them otherwise.

Could those 9 guns be today's production, or even this week's production? Maybe this is like picking up resources at a port that also produces them and no matter how much you try you never get to 0 because today's production cannot be loaded until tomorrow.

Production is 20 guns per month.

[Alamander]

Basically the same as with my tanks, except my tanks had the = adjacent to the device. As I mentioned, I think, for whatever reason, the 37mm tank guns in that unit did not have an upgrade path specified for the unit (only for the device in general), like the sound detectors on Honshu and this seems to make upgrades slower, as PaxMondo mentioned some time back in the post I shared.

I also think that your red support level may have played a role in slowing the upgrade. I noticed that my tanks also had less support than necessary, but my sound detectors (the ones without the =) did not, and the sound detectors upgraded more quickly than the tanks (about 4-5 days on average, compared to 2 weeks for the tanks).

[apbarog]

19 Feb 44

Tennessee, California and Oklahoma bombarded Hong Kong. 707 casualties and major base damage.

Tojos from Okinawa swept Miyako-Jima, the closest US held island. It has a size 1 airfield. No CAP. 27 Sallys with 27 Zeros then attacked, doing very little damage in severe storms.

Enemy bombers hit US troops at Kanhsien. 8 P-47s were overhead, using range 2 CAP from Kukong, but they couldn't engage the bombers, nor the ones that arrived afterwards. Moderate damage to the troops. US bombers then hit the Japanese at Kanhsien, and did significant damage to them. 2 P-38 squadrons are now moved to Kukong to dedicate a LRCAP over Kanhsien.

The enemy's 3rd Tank Divison is spotted way, way in northern China, on the easternmost trail. A small Chinese unit is in its way. B-26s bombed the enemy tanks, doing very little damage, but now movement is seen back to the southeast. Not sure what OPilot was thinking here. The trail has been blocked, albeit minimally, for years. He could break through with the armor, I think, but supply would be impossible on that very long trail.

Another foolish Chinese river crossing, just north of Sian. This one ran into 2 enemy divisions.

Ground combat at 83,40 (near Sian)

Allied Shock attack

Attacking force 32333 troops, 121 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1142

Defending force 28596 troops, 248 guns, 66 vehicles, Assault Value = 862

Allied adjusted assault: 207

Japanese adjusted defense: 1825

Allied assault odds: 1 to 8

Combat modifiers
Defender: leaders(+)
Attacker: shock(+), disruption(-)

Japanese ground losses:
850 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 82 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 9 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 5 disabled
Guns lost 9 (2 destroyed, 7 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
6653 casualties reported
Squads: 165 destroyed, 437 disabled
Non Combat: 4 destroyed, 56 disabled
Engineers: 12 destroyed, 23 disabled
Guns lost 55 (3 destroyed, 52 disabled)

Assaulting units:
24th Chinese Corps
27th Chinese Corps
40th Chinese Corps
38th Group Army

Defending units:
35th Division
8th Division

One Chinese corp is wrecked. The others are ok, but may not be strong enough to hold. Doesn't really matter here, to be honest. Neither side is going to achieve much here. OPilot has not weakened the northern front near Sian, and that's not all bad for the Allies.

I considered pulling the trigger on the Okinawa landings, but I won't yet. The armor prepped for Naha is still way down south, at Ternate. And armor will be needed. The invasion will wait for that unit, so it'll be 10 days or so before loading begins. The main show, for now, is still the Hong Kong/Canton pocket.

[apbarog]

20 Feb 44

Sub Runner missed light cruiser Tama south of Tokyo. Appeared to be heading south. But near Nagasaki...

Sub attack near Fukue-jima at 100,59

Japanese Ships
CV Kaga, Torpedo hits 1
CA Mikuma
CA Myoko
CA Chokai
CA Takao
CL Kiso
CS Nisshin
DD Takanami
DD Kazegumo
DD Hatsuzuki
DD Asashio
DD Hayashimo
DD Asashimo
DD Hamanami

Allied Ships
SS Angler, hits 4

SS Angler launches 6 torpedoes at CV Kaga

First confirmed carrier sighting in awhile. Had suspected they were between Nagasaki and Shanghai, and they may have been.

OPilot did probing artillery attacks at Sian and to the north of Sian. One hex is more vulnerable for the Chinese than the others.

Still reducing the enemy division at Temuloh on Malaya. The end isn't too far away, with the enemy combat strength down to 33.

OPilot swept and bombed Ishigaki. Moderate base damage. I hadn't moved CAP to the islands east of Formosa, but today the big carriers will move adjacent and range CAP. There's a risk of naval bombers going into a big CAP at Okinawa, so massive fighter sweeps of Naha and Nago are ordered.

Lots of US support units, currently at bases on the Chinese coast, start to prep for bases on the southern island of Japan.