The question to ask about The Italians

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

This is ridiculous. It's obvious that a rail line can handle a vast amount of supplies. More than enough for the action required in Spain. Remember, Spain has a tiny army. That means a tiny amount of combat needed to eliminate them.

Every urban area has marshalling yards where trains can be held while unloaded. Of course such locations would be behind front lines.

warspite1

Why were the Germans exploring the need for supply via sea then? And that was for a Spain friendly scenario remember.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

In other words, they could not handle much cargo. They could also not take much damage, especially if they were overloaded.

That depends upon how many there are. Turkish resistance would be non-existent across the Sea.

Not true, Hitler wanted to attack the Soviet Union. Even Stalin understood this by his actions.

Barbarossa wasn't even dreamed up till after France, or even the BoB.

You are the one in fantasy land. In Thrace, the Turkish Army had at least one infantry division, a Cavalry division with T-26 tanks and BA-6 armoured cars both of which could destroy any German tank at the time. Besides an armoured brigade, an infantry brigade an other units.

Thrace? That's on the European side of the straits. They're going to be trapped in the pocket.

By the way, Istanbul is on the Bosporus. Just look at the map, please?

Who said otherwise. The Germans will inject several infantry divisions across the Sea of Marmara and they will swing left to pocket the forces defending Istanbul and the Bosporus.

But not that many at one time and most of the barges would be larger than that. Much difficult to carry.

They can carry as many as they plan for. Trailers can be special made to whatever size is desired.

Not to mention what the Turkish Air Force and Navy would be doing to them. Even a sub on the surface, not to mention civilian water craft pressed into service and armed. Much less a Battlecruiser with 28cm guns.

The Luftwaffe will torch any piddling air or sea assets the Turks have in the area on day one.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Poland never surrendered. After the occupation, the highest number of people in the Polish military was 249,000 plus at least one brown bear who was promoted to Sergeant.

Well, their army sure disappeared.

It relocated. As I previously stated, the Polish military had up to 249,000 people and at least one bear.

The Polish Army took Monte Cassino in Italy.

Polish fighter units participated in the Battle of Britain plus individual Polish fighters in RAF squadrons. The Polish Navy was helping to escort convoys.

It didn't relocate as combat units. Individual men escaped and volunteered.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Barbarossa wasn't even dreamed up till after...the BoB.

warspite1

Not helping yourself.

When was the Marcks Plan? When was Adler Tag? You see I'm trying to help you by missing out the first phase of BoB entirely, but you are still talking absolute nonsense even when I try and help you.

[TulliusDetritus]

The genuine Tokyo Express used high speed DDs and APDs. One only needs to check the Kriegsmarine's OOB... They are stuck with very slow speed barges. Tons of them, ok. Ergo *no* night action as in the Solomons.

And besides, I can see literally dozens of RN DDs slaughtering these poor little things without escort.

I'm sorry. Wait for Plan Z (ready by 1948) if you want to take ova the world. Dankey shaun?

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

I'm surprised some of you assume Spain or Turkey would pull -yes or yes- a guerrilla war. Just because the former did it on the early 1800s.

Different societies, regimes will NOT be delivering the same, that's too mechanical. Want a really clear example? Compare the tsarist toothless, pathetic army circa 1914 with the soviet steamroller circa 1944. Just one mere generation apart and yet... This is what different regimes, epochs may offer.

I'm with Lemay: these two poor and backward states were an easy prey for the mighty (yes) Werhmacht. Especially Spain, devastated after a civil war. + poverty and backwardness. You cannot fight a *modern* war with this.

I think he got his priorities wrong though. You defeat the main foe = everyone else follows. His diversion of forces is just er... too anticlausewitzian And yet the guy with the funny moustache got this part right. Well, more or less.

Thank you sir.

But you need to understand: It's essential that they elevate the Spanish and Turks to supermen for their craven purposes.

Never mind that Germany easily rolled everyone they faced between 1939 and 1941.

One point about Spain in the Napoleonic Wars: Austria was a major force in those wars. By the 1930's she was an absolute zilch. It was about 125 years before WWII. A better measure of Spain's chances can be seen from the last war she fought on her own: The Spanish American War. Spain was totally defeated everywhere by a fledgling power and lost her remaining empire.

And let me add that there is still a reasonable possibility of a Vichy-type agreement. I would even say probable, considering Franco's political orientation.

The Turks had just lost their empire as well, and the closest we have to a gauge on their ability in this period is their performance in the Korean War - a disaster.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

When was the Marcks Plan? When was Adler Tag? You see I'm trying to help you by missing out the first phase of BoB entirely, but you are still talking absolute nonsense even when I try and help you.

"In the middle of 1940, following the rising tension between the Soviet Union and Germany over territories in the Balkans, an eventual invasion of the Soviet Union seemed the only solution to Hitler.[66] While no concrete plans had yet been made, Hitler told one of his generals in June that the victories in Western Europe finally freed his hands for a showdown with Bolshevism."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Barbarossa

Regardless, the point is that the Germans will have a year to plan the Turkish operation. How could that not be enough time??

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

The genuine Tokyo Express used high speed DDs and APDs. One only needs to check the Kriegsmarine's OOB... They are stuck with very slow speed barges. Tons of them, ok. Ergo *no* night action as in the Solomons.

And besides, I can see literally dozens of RN DDs slaughtering these poor little things without escort.

I'm sorry. Wait for Plan Z (ready by 1948) if you want to take ova the world. Dankey shaun?

The issue is whether the British can discount the threat of invasion. How do they know what fast motor boat assets the Germans have?

[TulliusDetritus]

The issue is whether the British can discount the threat of invasion. How do they know what fast motor boat assets the Germans have?

No rational leader would do that. Churchill took this threat very seriously. They were understandably terrified. No army, with the [possibly] mightiest war machine in the XX century across the Channel... A coup de main and somehow *oops* German divisions in Kent...

I've been reading Nimitz' papers and he still mentions (in early 1943!!!) Hawaii might be threatened [X(]

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

The Tokyo Express sailed into waters far from their air bases so they had little to no fighters for defense.

Correct. And the Americans had plenty of air assets to use against them. But they couldn't because it was night. Aircraft don't intercept anything very well at night. That's the point.

So the Royal Navy could go in at night and wipe out the invasion forces and leave the area before dawn. I am glad that you agree with me.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: warspite1

When was the Marcks Plan? When was Adler Tag? You see I'm trying to help you by missing out the first phase of BoB entirely, but you are still talking absolute nonsense even when I try and help you.

"In the middle of 1940, following the rising tension between the Soviet Union and Germany over territories in the Balkans, an eventual invasion of the Soviet Union seemed the only solution to Hitler.[66] While no concrete plans had yet been made, Hitler told one of his generals in June that the victories in Western Europe finally freed his hands for a showdown with Bolshevism."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Barbarossa

Regardless, the point is that the Germans will have a year to plan the Turkish operation. How could that not be enough time??

One million men in the Turkish Army with 42 infantry divisions, two Cavalry divisions, plus assorted brigades including armour. The Turkish Straits have to be crossed under fire. So they could plan it, they just have to fight it.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

The genuine Tokyo Express used high speed DDs and APDs. One only needs to check the Kriegsmarine's OOB... They are stuck with very slow speed barges. Tons of them, ok. Ergo *no* night action as in the Solomons.

And besides, I can see literally dozens of RN DDs slaughtering these poor little things without escort.

I'm sorry. Wait for Plan Z (ready by 1948) if you want to take ova the world. Dankey shaun?

I agree.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

In other words, they could not handle much cargo. They could also not take much damage, especially if they were overloaded.

That depends upon how many there are. Turkish resistance would be non-existent across the Sea.

Not true, Hitler wanted to attack the Soviet Union. Even Stalin understood this by his actions.

Barbarossa wasn't even dreamed up till after France, or even the BoB.

You are the one in fantasy land. In Thrace, the Turkish Army had at least one infantry division, a Cavalry division with T-26 tanks and BA-6 armoured cars both of which could destroy any German tank at the time. Besides an armoured brigade, an infantry brigade an other units.

Thrace? That's on the European side of the straits. They're going to be trapped in the pocket.

By the way, Istanbul is on the Bosporus. Just look at the map, please?

Who said otherwise. The Germans will inject several infantry divisions across the Sea of Marmara and they will swing left to pocket the forces defending Istanbul and the Bosporus.

But not that many at one time and most of the barges would be larger than that. Much difficult to carry.

They can carry as many as they plan for. Trailers can be special made to whatever size is desired.

Not to mention what the Turkish Air Force and Navy would be doing to them. Even a sub on the surface, not to mention civilian water craft pressed into service and armed. Much less a Battlecruiser with 28cm guns.

The Luftwaffe will torch any piddling air or sea assets the Turks have in the area on day one.

The Turkish Air Force had 500 aircraft, more later. The Luftwaffe could not destroy the RAF Fighter Command, the Turkish Air Force would last awhile. And where would the Luftwaffe be based initially?

There was one division at Istanbul and five divisions at the other end of the Turkish Straits, The Sea of Marmora would not be undefended.

You state the Turkish units in Thrace would be trapped in the pocket. What pocket? The Germans would have to go through them to get to the Turkish Straits. Look at a map for once.

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: warspite1

When was the Marcks Plan? When was Adler Tag? You see I'm trying to help you by missing out the first phase of BoB entirely, but you are still talking absolute nonsense even when I try and help you.

"In the middle of 1940, following the rising tension between the Soviet Union and Germany over territories in the Balkans, an eventual invasion of the Soviet Union seemed the only solution to Hitler.[66] While no concrete plans had yet been made, Hitler told one of his generals in June that the victories in Western Europe finally freed his hands for a showdown with Bolshevism."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Barbarossa

Regardless, the point is that the Germans will have a year to plan the Turkish operation. How could that not be enough time??

One million men in the Turkish Army with 42 infantry divisions, two Cavalry divisions, plus assorted brigades including armour. The Turkish Straits have to be crossed under fire. So they could plan it, they just have to fight it.

There was also a plan to take Switzerland. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Tannenbaum

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: warspite1

When was the Marcks Plan? When was Adler Tag? You see I'm trying to help you by missing out the first phase of BoB entirely, but you are still talking absolute nonsense even when I try and help you.

"In the middle of 1940, following the rising tension between the Soviet Union and Germany over territories in the Balkans, an eventual invasion of the Soviet Union seemed the only solution to Hitler.[66] While no concrete plans had yet been made, Hitler told one of his generals in June that the victories in Western Europe finally freed his hands for a showdown with Bolshevism."

warspite1

This is a joke right?

You said AND I QUOTE:

Curtis Lemay

Barbarossa wasn't even dreamed up till after....the BoB.

Right, so having got yet ANOTHER fact wrong you try and change the meaning of what you said. Barbarossa wasn't even dreamed up. I repeat, according to you Barbarossa wasn't even dreamed up. Right. The Genesis of Barbarossa:

3 July 1940 - Halder asks von Greiffenberg to study requirements
21 July 1940 - At a conference Hitler confirmed the objectives
29 July 1940 - Halder gave Marcks the task of planning the invasion of the USSR
5 August 1940 - Marcks draft plan was completed

So, genius, you think Barbarossa was not even dreamed up while the Battle of Britain (10 July-31 October 1940) was going on?

No, the Marcks Plan was not the final plan, but that is not what you said. When, once again you were proven totally wrong, you then try and side step by changing what you meant. Disingenuous, but sadly this is increasingly what you are about.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

And besides, I can see literally dozens of RN DDs slaughtering these poor little things without escort.

The issue is whether the British can discount the threat of invasion. How do they know what fast motor boat assets the Germans have?

warspite1

No. The issue is whether there is any threat of invasion for them to discount. But, as usual, you can provide no detail, not even make a proper attempt at suggesting what the Germans would do.

You don't understand any of this so you just use the term 'demonstrating' and mention using some French barges (what was it you asked? didn't they do that historically? [X(]).

If the Germans wanted to make the British believe there was going to be an invasion then they would need to take action to make the British believe that.

You don't want to admit that, given Goering's nature, he would launch a BoB type operation because you know that the Germans were seriously mauled in doing so and - in this scenario - they would be undertaking it with less of an advantage - and so risk even more loss.

You don't seem to understand anything about the barges situation but presumably even you would realise that the work undertaken on the Rhine barges would be a) uneconomical given that it's only for a deception and b) more importantly, will actually affect the German economy. I don't have figures for the non-German barges but assume they would affect the French and Dutch economies also.

But economic issues and little things like getting your facts right appear increasingly beyond you.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Regardless, the point is that the Germans will have a year to plan the Turkish operation. How could that not be enough time??

warspite1

What was that comment in response to? This is nothing I've raised.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

The issue is whether the British can discount the threat of invasion. How do they know what fast motor boat assets the Germans have?

warspite1

I know you are not suggesting a Sea Lion takes place, but can we just clear off this repeated comment about 'fast motor boats' for once and for all.

I believe you said WSC was worried about the Germans using 'fast motor boats' because you saw it in the movie Darkest Hour. Presumably you have a source for this? I'd love to know the context and when Churchill was discussing this.

As far as I know, right at the start of the war he asked the CoS's to have a look into 20,000 Germans crossing and landing at one point along the coast. But if this is what you are referring to then its not really relevant is it? One can only imagine their response.

Only in September did Churchill (and Brooke) start to believe that an invasion may be attempted - and that was on the basis that the Luftwaffe had been hammering away at the RAF for a month solid and there were more than a thousand barges at various points along the Channel (the RAF and RN had attacked these). You see, in this case there was actually something happening to make Churchill believe an invasion was being planned - quite an important difference from what you aren't proposing.

[Aurelian]

The only German fast motor boats I'm aware of where what the Allies called E-boats. And with a crew of 20-30, just where would the invading troops be put? Then you have tanks, artillery, trucks...

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Regardless, the point is that the Germans will have a year to plan the Turkish operation. How could that not be enough time??

warspite1

What was that comment in response to? This is nothing I've raised.

Me and my comments.

All this time that Germany is playing around at other places means more T-34s, KV 1/2s, and MiGs available.