By September, the British had the start if not all of the 500,000 Enfield rifles, artillery, and mortars plus the ammunition sent to them from the US. [:D]
There was an armoured brigade in England plus the 1st Canadian Division that was fully equipped. Plus the vehicle and armament factories were building lots of toys. [:D]
The question to ask about The Italians
Moderator: maddog986
RE: The question to ask about The Italians
Seek peace but keep your gun handy.
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!
“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
; Julia Child
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!
“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
; Julia Child
RE: The question to ask about The Italians
The issue for the British after the fall of France was, without wishing to state the obvious, if the home country fell then the game was up anyway. Yes, the plan was that the British would fight on from the Dominions, but the bulk of the manufacturing capability, and the largest concentration of manpower would be under enemy occupation. Quite clearly defence of the UK therefore was paramount in the summer of 1940.
But, that does not mean that the British would simply refuse to defend elsewhere if it was needed – and if the threat to the UK was manageable. So despite, in real life, the Germans actually doing something about preparing for an invasion, Churchill didn’t bring home UK forces from Egypt and the Middle East, he didn’t reduce Malta and Gibraltar of defences. Yes he swapped six territorial battalions in the UK with six regular battalions from Egypt, and small elements of the ANZAC forces that were to have fought in France, were sent to the UK from the Middle East. The Canadians were in the UK too. What numbers could be expected to bolster the defences of Gibraltar would depend on the threat to the UK, but Gibraltar was too important to be simply given up.
But what is being proposed in this woefully undetailed ‘staff study’ is that the Germans effectively do nothing but plonk a few French barges in various ports while the Luftwaffe sit around and occasionally ‘demonstrate’. Apparently, this policy of letting British industry get on and recover, this policy of leaving Britain alone, while fighter command pilots train properly and bomber command builds up is supposed to be sufficient to make the British believe an invasion was imminent.
After September, when the weather would preclude an invasion, the British have far more flexibility to move units overseas. And so timing of course is also very important, and that is why Curtis Lemay is so desperate for his attack on Spain to start before the Germans would realistically have been in a position to do so.
He suggested July! for this reason. The Armistice with France was only signed on the 22 June 1940. Until around the 1 June, the Germans had no reason to believe that France would be defeated so quickly and there is no way plans would have been made for what happens next. We know Hitler still believed, especially after the armistice, that the British would refuse to fight on and continued to make peace feelers. There would necessarily be a time for the defeat of France to sink in and for the British to come to their senses, before Hitler realised the truth….
Having done so, and Catapult would have pretty much told him all he needed to know, he now, at the start of July, has to start thinking about the next steps. We know the route he chose, but this scenario has Hitler choosing a different path having listened to Raeder and a few others about the benefits of the Mediterranean.
Gibraltar would of course have been the first name on the list and this is perfect, after all, Franco would be sufficiently grateful for the help received in installing him as Claudillo, that he would jump at the chance to get Gibraltar back. Despite the total nonsense outlined (there is no detail) in this scenario, under no circumstances under any scenario, would Hitler simply plan to invade Spain. Counter-factuals can be fun to explore, but alternate scenarios need to be kept from flights of fantasy.
So, after Catapult gives Hitler his answer from the UK, Hitler will now set out to convince Spain of the need to join the Axis after the usual diplomatic manoeuvrings. Hitler is no doubt fully confident that Franco knows what he has to do. But, unlike Hitler, we know exactly what Franco will say and we know why he will say it. Hitler will ask Mussolini to speak to him as one ‘southern European’ to another, and we know too, what will come from this. Eventually (we assume Hitler is by this point sufficiently set on a Med strategy, and sufficiently angered by Franco) he gives the Spaniard an ultimatum. “Look, I’ve been nice, I’ve offered you what I can, but I really need you to make a decision or it’s no more Mr Nice Guy”. Logically this ultimatum coincides with plans to invade Spain instead.
An invasion of Spain is such a massive decision. I know it’s a favourite of strategic war gamers, but if we come out of the cardboard and pixel world we gamers all love to inhabit, and actually stay in the real world then we must acknowledge that, for so many reasons, and on so many levels, this is a huge decision. The letters between Hitler and Mussolini reflect how annoyed Hitler was at Franco’s stance but, at no point, does he remotely even suggest that there would be any offensive action taken against Spain in return. But, for the purposes of this scenario, we are going with it, but it is something that Hitler will do everything he can to avoid.
By the time the Germans have drawn up the plans and moved the forces required into southwest France and ready for the lead elements to cross the border, we are probably talking mid-August at the earliest? I think with Malta and Gibraltar intact and the Regia Marina yet to have the Littorios worked up, we can discount any naval assistance from the Italians. Besides, the RM is fully focussed on supplying Italian troops in North Africa that Mussolini is desperate to set against the British in Egypt.
Meanwhile, what has been happening in Northern France? This is the big unanswered question at this point. What exactly have the Germans been doing to make the British believe an invasion is being planned? Without understanding this then any British response to action against Spain simply can’t be considered.
But, that does not mean that the British would simply refuse to defend elsewhere if it was needed – and if the threat to the UK was manageable. So despite, in real life, the Germans actually doing something about preparing for an invasion, Churchill didn’t bring home UK forces from Egypt and the Middle East, he didn’t reduce Malta and Gibraltar of defences. Yes he swapped six territorial battalions in the UK with six regular battalions from Egypt, and small elements of the ANZAC forces that were to have fought in France, were sent to the UK from the Middle East. The Canadians were in the UK too. What numbers could be expected to bolster the defences of Gibraltar would depend on the threat to the UK, but Gibraltar was too important to be simply given up.
But what is being proposed in this woefully undetailed ‘staff study’ is that the Germans effectively do nothing but plonk a few French barges in various ports while the Luftwaffe sit around and occasionally ‘demonstrate’. Apparently, this policy of letting British industry get on and recover, this policy of leaving Britain alone, while fighter command pilots train properly and bomber command builds up is supposed to be sufficient to make the British believe an invasion was imminent.
After September, when the weather would preclude an invasion, the British have far more flexibility to move units overseas. And so timing of course is also very important, and that is why Curtis Lemay is so desperate for his attack on Spain to start before the Germans would realistically have been in a position to do so.
He suggested July! for this reason. The Armistice with France was only signed on the 22 June 1940. Until around the 1 June, the Germans had no reason to believe that France would be defeated so quickly and there is no way plans would have been made for what happens next. We know Hitler still believed, especially after the armistice, that the British would refuse to fight on and continued to make peace feelers. There would necessarily be a time for the defeat of France to sink in and for the British to come to their senses, before Hitler realised the truth….
Having done so, and Catapult would have pretty much told him all he needed to know, he now, at the start of July, has to start thinking about the next steps. We know the route he chose, but this scenario has Hitler choosing a different path having listened to Raeder and a few others about the benefits of the Mediterranean.
Gibraltar would of course have been the first name on the list and this is perfect, after all, Franco would be sufficiently grateful for the help received in installing him as Claudillo, that he would jump at the chance to get Gibraltar back. Despite the total nonsense outlined (there is no detail) in this scenario, under no circumstances under any scenario, would Hitler simply plan to invade Spain. Counter-factuals can be fun to explore, but alternate scenarios need to be kept from flights of fantasy.
So, after Catapult gives Hitler his answer from the UK, Hitler will now set out to convince Spain of the need to join the Axis after the usual diplomatic manoeuvrings. Hitler is no doubt fully confident that Franco knows what he has to do. But, unlike Hitler, we know exactly what Franco will say and we know why he will say it. Hitler will ask Mussolini to speak to him as one ‘southern European’ to another, and we know too, what will come from this. Eventually (we assume Hitler is by this point sufficiently set on a Med strategy, and sufficiently angered by Franco) he gives the Spaniard an ultimatum. “Look, I’ve been nice, I’ve offered you what I can, but I really need you to make a decision or it’s no more Mr Nice Guy”. Logically this ultimatum coincides with plans to invade Spain instead.
An invasion of Spain is such a massive decision. I know it’s a favourite of strategic war gamers, but if we come out of the cardboard and pixel world we gamers all love to inhabit, and actually stay in the real world then we must acknowledge that, for so many reasons, and on so many levels, this is a huge decision. The letters between Hitler and Mussolini reflect how annoyed Hitler was at Franco’s stance but, at no point, does he remotely even suggest that there would be any offensive action taken against Spain in return. But, for the purposes of this scenario, we are going with it, but it is something that Hitler will do everything he can to avoid.
By the time the Germans have drawn up the plans and moved the forces required into southwest France and ready for the lead elements to cross the border, we are probably talking mid-August at the earliest? I think with Malta and Gibraltar intact and the Regia Marina yet to have the Littorios worked up, we can discount any naval assistance from the Italians. Besides, the RM is fully focussed on supplying Italian troops in North Africa that Mussolini is desperate to set against the British in Egypt.
Meanwhile, what has been happening in Northern France? This is the big unanswered question at this point. What exactly have the Germans been doing to make the British believe an invasion is being planned? Without understanding this then any British response to action against Spain simply can’t be considered.
Now Maitland, now's your time!
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
RE: The question to ask about The Italians
Not only was the armistice signed on 22 June 1940, the Panzer formations need at least six weeks of refitting and reorganizing for their next operations. If this was not done, there would be a lot of broken down vehicles along the roads. It is time consuming to do the refitting.
Seek peace but keep your gun handy.
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!
“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
; Julia Child
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!
“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
; Julia Child-
Curtis Lemay
- Posts: 14762
- Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:12 pm
- Location: Houston, TX
RE: The question to ask about The Italians
ORIGINAL: warspite1
Once again you wilfully mis-represent what I say. Pretty pathetic to be honest. I have suggested nothing of the sort and this behaviour just makes you look bad.
You're just suggesting that the Japs go to war with the US and British. That's going to be saving them a fortune!
...and in 'waiting' for years it helped Japan how exactly?
Irrelevant. The point is, that no collapse of government occurred, despite years of extra war in China.
Except there kind of is. Japan needed to do something. We know that Barbarossa meant the argument was settled in real life in favour of the south. But you simply refuse to accept (because it doesn't suit your scenario) that in this alternate scenario, Japan still has a choice to make. All the signs, all that is happening and (given all that we know actually happened in terms of the action Japan took) leads us logically to conclude Japan would take the historic route. To not so so is too much of a flight of fantasy.
Sorry that it hurts your scenario but there you gp.
The wiki article and common sense tells us that Barbarossa was a prerequisite for the Rising Sun offensive. No "signs", no "logic" lead anywhere else.
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Curtis Lemay
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- Location: Houston, TX
RE: The question to ask about The Italians
ORIGINAL: warspite1
This is a joke right?
You said AND I QUOTE:
Curtis Lemay
Barbarossa wasn't even dreamed up till after....the BoB.
Right, so having got yet ANOTHER fact wrong you try and change the meaning of what you said. Barbarossa wasn't even dreamed up. I repeat, according to you Barbarossa wasn't even dreamed up. Right. The Genesis of Barbarossa:
The actual operation called Barbarossa wasn't even dreamed up.
A vague wishlist sort of examination is not the same as the named operation.
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Curtis Lemay
- Posts: 14762
- Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:12 pm
- Location: Houston, TX
RE: The question to ask about The Italians
ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
So the Royal Navy could go in at night and wipe out the invasion forces and leave the area before dawn. I am glad that you agree with me.
While in port they are defended by field artillery and eventually, coastal batteries.
Trading DDs for barges is a win for Germany.
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Curtis Lemay
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- Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:12 pm
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RE: The question to ask about The Italians
ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
One million men in the Turkish Army with 42 infantry divisions, two Cavalry divisions, plus assorted brigades including armour. The Turkish Straits have to be crossed under fire. So they could plan it, they just have to fight it.
This is not out of line with SPI. They have 30 divisions with one division a week arriving as reinforcement. So, some of those may have been reserves.
But, they are distributed all over Turkey (see the attached shot), and 21 of those divisions (and all the reinforcements) are "Static" divisions - like they don't have transport for their heavy equipment and have to manhandle it everywhere in order to move. The Turks were very poorly equipped.
This makes them far less than ideal. They have to decide far in advance just where they will be deployed, and that's pretty much where they will stay. SPI has 12 divisions in front of the Bosporus and one division in Istanbul. If they redistribute that to the Sea of Marmara, the Germans will just blitz through Istanbul directly.
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Curtis Lemay
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RE: The question to ask about The Italians
ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
The Turkish Air Force had 500 aircraft, more later. The Luftwaffe could not destroy the RAF Fighter Command, the Turkish Air Force would last awhile. And where would the Luftwaffe be based initially?
Bulgaria and Greece. The RAF was protected by the Channel.
And, since there is no Barbarossa, all the air assets that would have been used for that will be available for Turkey. The Soviets lost about 2000 aircraft on week one, recall.
RE: The question to ask about The Italians
Warspite1ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
ORIGINAL: warspite1
This is a joke right?
You said AND I QUOTE:
Curtis Lemay
Barbarossa wasn't even dreamed up till after....the BoB.
Right, so having got yet ANOTHER fact wrong you try and change the meaning of what you said. Barbarossa wasn't even dreamed up. I repeat, according to you Barbarossa wasn't even dreamed up. Right. The Genesis of Barbarossa:
The actual operation called Barbarossa wasn't even dreamed up.
A vague wishlist sort of examination is not the same as the named operation.
Oh.....You need to stop digging.
The word Barbarossa refers generally to the invasion of the USSR and is used when discussing the plans and preparations too. But let’s play your silly disingenuous game for the moment. So you are saying that Barbarossa was the named operation - and no plans count unless called Barbarossa.......
But how can that be because surely you know that Hitler used the name Barbarossa for the first time in December 1940 (previously Otto or Fritz) and the plan in place at that time was amended and revised numerous times afterwards until the final version.
So please stop this nonsense. The German plans for the invasion of the Soviet Union - ultimately to be known as Barbarossa - began in July 1940.
By the way, did you really call the Marcks plan a vague wishlist? erm.... okay.....
Now Maitland, now's your time!
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
RE: The question to ask about The Italians
warspite1ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
Trading DDs for barges is a win for Germany.
Well that is pretty hilarious.
Trading barges is a win for Germany..... how many barges do you think the Germans have? What happpens to the follow up waves and the replacements and the supplies when those barges are sunk? No, trading barges is not a win for Germany because they are irreplaceable.
Now Maitland, now's your time!
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
RE: The question to ask about The Italians
warspite1ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
You're just suggesting that the Japs go to war with the US and British. That's going to be saving them a fortune!
What are you talking about now??
warspite1ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
Irrelevant. The point is, that no collapse of government occurred, despite years of extra war in China.
Are we ignoring July 1944 after the failure to secure a withdrawal from China then? Is that what we are playing here, ignore the bits you don’t like?
warspite1ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
The wiki article and common sense tells us that Barbarossa was a prerequisite for the Rising Sun offensive. No "signs", no "logic" lead anywhere else.
Nope. Only if you ignore the situation that Japan are facing. Barbarossa was NOT a prerequisite, in real life Barbarossa meant the question - North or South - was effectively answered because it took the decision largely away. But with no Barbarossa the same options still face Japan, the same problems still face Japan, and the same solutions still face Japan. Nothing, but nothing says they can’t take the same path, and all signs and logic heads them south.
Now Maitland, now's your time!
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
RE: The question to ask about The Italians
ORIGINAL: warspite1
warspite1ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
So the Royal Navy could go in at night and wipe out the invasion forces and leave the area before dawn. I am glad that you agree with me.
While in port they are defended by field artillery and eventually, coastal batteries.
Trading DDs for barges is a win for Germany.
Well that is pretty hilarious.
Trading barges is a win for Germany..... how many barges do you think the Germans have? What happpens to the follow up waves and the replacements and the supplies when those barges are sunk? No, trading barges is not a win for Germany because they are irreplaceable.
With the barges in port during the invasion they are not transporting men, equipment, and/or supplies across the Channel so that is the win for the United Kingdom. The RAF bomber command would still be bombing them so no destroyers would be needed while the barges are still being sunk. United Kingdom wins, Nazi Germany and Curtis Lemay lose.
Seek peace but keep your gun handy.
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!
“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
; Julia Child
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!
“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
; Julia ChildRE: The question to ask about The Italians
ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
One million men in the Turkish Army with 42 infantry divisions, two Cavalry divisions, plus assorted brigades including armour. The Turkish Straits have to be crossed under fire. So they could plan it, they just have to fight it.
This is not out of line with SPI. They have 30 divisions with one division a week arriving as reinforcement. So, some of those may have been reserves.
But, they are distributed all over Turkey (see the attached shot), and 21 of those divisions (and all the reinforcements) are "Static" divisions - like they don't have transport for their heavy equipment and have to manhandle it everywhere in order to move. The Turks were very poorly equipped.
This makes them far less than ideal. They have to decide far in advance just where they will be deployed, and that's pretty much where they will stay. SPI has 12 divisions in front of the Bosporus and one division in Istanbul. If they redistribute that to the Sea of Marmara, the Germans will just blitz through Istanbul directly.
Who gives a $hit about a SPI game and their setup and definitions? I am talking reality and not about someone's attempt to make a game to make them money. Besides, that setup is wrong.
Those divisions are not static, nailed to the ground with their foot. They can and would be moved. There are railroads and other ways to move them. Did you ever hear about the Parisian taxi service?
Poorly equipped divisions are still tough to dislodge on an amphibious invasion, especially when the attacker has no naval surface vessels to keep a Battle Cruiser away along with Destroyers and other vessels. Civilian smaller vessels could easily have guns mounted on them to destroy those unescorted barges.
France and Britain had also promised to help arm Turkey and Turkey was eligible for Lend Lease if the Turks wanted it. That is besides all of the equipment and supplies availible from the Soviets - especially if the Soviets are exchanging their T-26s, BT-5s and BT-7s for T-34s and KV-1/2s.
Most of those Soviet aircraft destroyed on the ground did not have pilots at the airfields. The pilots were elsewhere being trained on newer aircraft which the Soviets were building to replace the older aircraft. Germany counted ground aircraft kills for their pilots and not just air-to-air kills.
So this would be after Greece? At least there is a timeline for that. Turkey would have fun with the British invading Greek islands, and allowing the RAF to base in Turkey to bomb Polesti! [:D]
Meanwhile, the Soviets continue to produce more T-34s, KV-1/2s, MiGs and IL-2s. [:D]
Seek peace but keep your gun handy.
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!
“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
; Julia Child
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!
“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
; Julia ChildRE: The question to ask about The Italians
ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
The Turkish Air Force had 500 aircraft, more later. The Luftwaffe could not destroy the RAF Fighter Command, the Turkish Air Force would last awhile. And where would the Luftwaffe be based initially?
Bulgaria and Greece. The RAF was protected by the Channel.
And, since there is no Barbarossa, all the air assets that would have been used for that will be available for Turkey. The Soviets lost about 2000 aircraft on week one, recall.
Since the RAF would be mostly unopposed over France and Northwest Germany, the RAF would have fun!
Turkey could lose Thrace and still be fairly intact. There is no Germany Navy in the area, the Italian Navy would be out numbered and the Bulgarian and Romanian navies (if they participated in this war) would not be strong enough and vulnerable to Turkish and RAF air action in the Black Sea if the Turkish Navy did not wipe those navies out if they left port.
Bulgaria had a non-aggression pact with Turkey. [8|] Bulgaria also never declared war on the Soviet Union nor the United Stated and the United Kingdom until after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.
Seek peace but keep your gun handy.
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!
“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
; Julia Child
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!
“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
; Julia Child-
Curtis Lemay
- Posts: 14762
- Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:12 pm
- Location: Houston, TX
RE: The question to ask about The Italians
ORIGINAL: warspite1
warspite1ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
Trading DDs for barges is a win for Germany.
Well that is pretty hilarious.
Trading barges is a win for Germany..... how many barges do you think the Germans have? What happpens to the follow up waves and the replacements and the supplies when those barges are sunk? No, trading barges is not a win for Germany because they are irreplaceable.
Yes, it is hilarious that you would think that! How many DDs does Britain have? There are no follow up waves and replacements, because no Sea Lion will occur! Tricking the British into burning their DDs for piddling barges would be a monstrous coup!
And barges are far more replaceable than DDs, even if Sea Lion was to occur!
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Curtis Lemay
- Posts: 14762
- Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:12 pm
- Location: Houston, TX
RE: The question to ask about The Italians
ORIGINAL: warspite1
What are you talking about now??
According to you, the Japs are in a pickle because of the cost of the war in China. So, your solution for them is......to go to war with the US and Britain!
Are we ignoring July 1944 after the failure to secure a withdrawal from China then? Is that what we are playing here, ignore the bits you don’t like?
That was obviously because of the War in the Pacific. And, it was four years later.
Nope. Only if you ignore the situation that Japan are facing. Barbarossa was NOT a prerequisite, in real life Barbarossa meant the question - North or South - was effectively answered because it took the decision largely away. But with no Barbarossa the same options still face Japan, the same problems still face Japan, and the same solutions still face Japan. Nothing, but nothing says they can’t take the same path, and all signs and logic heads them south.
Again, you have no basis for that. I have the wiki article that says the opposite.
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Curtis Lemay
- Posts: 14762
- Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:12 pm
- Location: Houston, TX
RE: The question to ask about The Italians
ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
With the barges in port during the invasion they are not transporting men, equipment, and/or supplies across the Channel so that is the win for the United Kingdom. The RAF bomber command would still be bombing them so no destroyers would be needed while the barges are still being sunk. United Kingdom wins, Nazi Germany and Curtis Lemay lose.
The barges are only there to sucker the British about German plans.
And, bombing naval targets in port is a daylight operation. So, that would reverse the roles of the participants in the BoB. British escorts would be at the end of their range. German pilots shot down would go back to combat, British ones would go to POW camps. Trading barges for the RAF is also a good deal for Germany.
RE: The question to ask about The Italians
warspite1ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
ORIGINAL: warspite1
warspite1ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
Trading DDs for barges is a win for Germany.
Well that is pretty hilarious.
Trading barges is a win for Germany..... how many barges do you think the Germans have? What happpens to the follow up waves and the replacements and the supplies when those barges are sunk? No, trading barges is not a win for Germany because they are irreplaceable.
Yes, it is hilarious that you would think that! How many DDs does Britain have? There are no follow up waves and replacements, because no Sea Lion will occur! Tricking the British into burning their DDs for piddling barges would be a monstrous coup!
And barges are far more replaceable than DDs, even if Sea Lion was to occur!
Well that's what you get for joining in someone else's conversation. I see the premise is that DD's sail to the ports to sink empty barges. Right I will stick to our debates going forward so that I don't get the wrong end of the stick.
Now Maitland, now's your time!
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
Duke of Wellington to 1st Guards Brigade - Waterloo 18 June 1815
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Curtis Lemay
- Posts: 14762
- Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:12 pm
- Location: Houston, TX
RE: The question to ask about The Italians
ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
Who gives a $hit about a SPI game and their setup and definitions?
It represents the opinions of professional wargame designers. People who had their opinions validated by continual purchases of their product over the course of years. No one on this board can match that.
By the way, putting that thing together was fun! Brought back old memories.
Those divisions are not static, nailed to the ground with their foot. They can and would be moved. There are railroads and other ways to move them. Did you ever hear about the Parisian taxi service?
Taxis can't tow field guns. And their static condition might also be due to their training, if they had never been trained above garrison status. The caliber of troops depends upon their training, commitment, and caliber of their officers and commanders. The Turkish army had expanded rapidly since 1938. They are a third rate power. Their divisions were probably as poorly trained and officered as they were equipped.
Poorly equipped divisions are still tough to dislodge on an amphibious invasion, especially when the attacker has no naval surface vessels to keep a Battle Cruiser away along with Destroyers and other vessels. Civilian smaller vessels could easily have guns mounted on them to destroy those unescorted barges.
Again, if they redeploy so that they cover the entire length of the Sea of Marmara, then they won't be as strong in front of Istanbul. The Germans will just bowl over them there.
France and Britain had also promised to help arm Turkey and Turkey was eligible for Lend Lease if the Turks wanted it. That is besides all of the equipment and supplies availible from the Soviets - especially if the Soviets are exchanging their T-26s, BT-5s and BT-7s for T-34s and KV-1/2s.
France is now Vichy. Britain couldn't save Greece. The Soviets are going to be thinking of themselves.
Most of those Soviet aircraft destroyed on the ground did not have pilots at the airfields. The pilots were elsewhere being trained on newer aircraft which the Soviets were building to replace the older aircraft. Germany counted ground aircraft kills for their pilots and not just air-to-air kills.
Still destroys the aircraft, though.
So this would be after Greece? At least there is a timeline for that. Turkey would have fun with the British invading Greek islands, and allowing the RAF to base in Turkey to bomb Polesti! [:D]
They would have to fly through a lot Luftwaffe. And the British were sent fleeing after Greece.
Meanwhile, the Soviets continue to produce more T-34s, KV-1/2s, MiGs and IL-2s. [:D]
At a peace-time rate. Meanwhile, Baku comes closer to the Barbarossa start line.
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Curtis Lemay
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- Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:12 pm
- Location: Houston, TX
RE: The question to ask about The Italians
ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
Since the RAF would be mostly unopposed over France and Northwest Germany, the RAF would have fun!
The situation if France would be the same as historical. Only the Luftwaffe scheduled to be used in Barbarossa would be available for Turkey.
Turkey could lose Thrace and still be fairly intact. There is no Germany Navy in the area, the Italian Navy would be out numbered and the Bulgarian and Romanian navies (if they participated in this war) would not be strong enough and vulnerable to Turkish and RAF air action in the Black Sea if the Turkish Navy did not wipe those navies out if they left port.
Again, the Luftwaffe would torch any naval forces in the Sea of Marmara.
Bulgaria had a non-aggression pact with Turkey. [8|] Bulgaria also never declared war on the Soviet Union nor the United Stated and the United Kingdom until after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.
Germany had a non-aggression pact with the Soviet Union, too.
Germany doesn't need to be in Bulgaria anyway. They can attack through Greece. Bulgaria needn't be involved, militarily.