The question to ask about The Italians

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

This does not invalidate Lemay's point. To think a devastated and backward state could pull an efficient and successful defence and then a 1808 in 1940 is errr a *wishful tinking* which I don't buy for a second.

warspite1

I have not suggested Lemay's point is not valid. I have not suggested for a moment that the German's won't ultimately be successful.

What I have stated is that the simple 'blitz' without repercussion nonsense is, exactly that. There will be an economic, political and military cost to Germany - what that will be will only be identified (to the limited extent we can) from further exploration. Simply stating 'overwhelming force', almost unlimited rail supply from an efficient railway, and no response from the British, despite not being bothered to explain why, doesn't cut it.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

The trains would cross from Vichy France into Spain, I don't think that the map with major rail lines is incorrect.

The Spanish defense would probably not be successful but it would be costly.

warspite1

As far as I know there wasn't one - and certainly not one that crosses without break because of the different gauges. The only line is the one previously mentioned on the Bay of Biscay coast.

As for crossing from Vichy, here again, this is what I've been trying to explain about consequences. The Germans can't just use Vichy. Well, they could but if they demand this then Vichy effectively collapses within a few weeks of its creation. This sort of thing can't be simply ignored. Collapse of Vichy, at this point in time, would potentially be a major problem for Germany.

[UP844]

This 1921 map, taken from the Wiki entry about Spanish railways, shows another rail link on the Mediterranean coast, but - as Warspite pointed out - using it would have meant to pass through Vichy territory and, moreover, it would have implied having a much longer - and even more vulnerable to Royal Navy attacks - supply line to any forces attacking from the north.

[UP844]

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/ ... ystem-1939 is a map of the major rail lines in Europe in 1939. Only 1 major line crosses into Spain.

The accuracy of this map is questionable: in the Italian rail network (which I know very well) it does not show major links such as Brenner-Bologna (THE primary supply route for Germans in the Italian campaign) or Milan-Venice.

The line shown in the map, however, exists: it is not shown in the 1921 map because it was opened in 1928 [:)]. In WW2 it handled most traffic between Spain and the Third Reich, and it would have been a much safer choice as a supply line because of its location far away from the coast. The line was closed in 1970 (see the Wiki entry below for details).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canfranc_ ... ay_station

So, the Germans had at least a railway line safe from possible RN attacks.

On a side note, it is true that the Germans quickly wiped out almost anyone in 1939-1940, but - with the exception of Norway - their campaigns were carried out in flat terrain and - in the West - criss-crossed by extensive rail and road networks. This is not the case neither in Spain nor in Turkey, so I doubt they would have been able to blitz through both countries (especially Turkey, which is much larger and less developed than Spain).

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: UP844

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/ ... ystem-1939 is a map of the major rail lines in Europe in 1939. Only 1 major line crosses into Spain.

The accuracy of this map is questionable: in the Italian rail network (which I know very well) it does not show major links such as Brenner-Bologna (THE primary supply route for Germans in the Italian campaign) or Milan-Venice.

The line shown in the map, however, exists: it is not shown in the 1921 map because it was opened in 1928 [:)]. In WW2 it handled most traffic between Spain and the Third Reich, and it would have been a much safer choice as a supply line because of its location far away from the coast. The line was closed in 1970 (see the Wiki entry below for details).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canfranc_ ... ay_station

So, the Germans had at least a railway line safe from possible RN attacks.

On a side note, it is true that the Germans quickly wiped out almost anyone in 1939-1940, but - with the exception of Norway - their campaigns were carried out in flat terrain and - in the West - criss-crossed by extensive rail and road networks. This is not the case neither in Spain nor in Turkey, so I doubt they would have been able to blitz through both countries (especially Turkey, which is much larger and less developed than Spain).

Warspite1

Well yes, if the Germans are prepared to violate Vichy. That line runs through Pau - which I believe was in Vichy. But again why would they do that? And why are the consequences being ignored?

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: UP844

The article is perfectly correct, but it has a not-so-small flaw: it refers to US railroads. For the 1940s, it assume a 180,000 lbs gross capacity per boxcar: this implies an axle load equal to 45,000 lbs/axle. Current (2020) allowed axle loads in Europe range from 22.5 to 25 metric tons (49,600 to 55,100 lbs) per axle; in the 1940s 15 metric tons per axle would be a realistic assumption, especially outside Germany, France and Britain. Moreovere, 2-axle railcars were the norm in that age.

So, the average railcar would have been able to carry approximately 20 metric tons (44,000 lbs)

You provide no link for this, but I'll take your word for it (I doubt I would get the same courtesy). But, such would have to be much smaller (shorter) cars.

Forget 60-car trains: this is a short train in US practice, but European railways do not have the very long sidings of US railways. The theoretical current standard for freight trains is 750 meters (~2,500 feet) and was about half this size in the 1940s. On the other hand, few locomotives would have been able to haul a 60-car trains, especially on steep and winding mountain lines (even though the Spanish Railways had some of the most powerful steam locomotives in Europe).

Locomotives can be linked together. However, if the sidings are as short as claimed, that wouldn't do any good. But, now we have much shorter trains than in my example. It really is the length of the train that forms the traffic issue.

480,000 tons per month @ 660 tons per train means 24 trains per day, not 3.5 (and another 24 trains coming back), i.e. 48 trains per day. I seriously doubt a single line mountain railroad could absorb such traffic.

I don't see why. An hour between trains? Plenty of time to get such short trains onto a siding on the return.

And, note that I was being VERY generous on the supply calculation. In all probability, that 60,000 tons included everything in the Desert, not just two panzer and two motor divisions. And the invasion force wouldn't have been 16 panzer and 16 motor divisions anyway. The real supply requirement for an army group would be far less than 480,000 tons per month - I just don't have any better figure.

Also, let's not forget that trucks extend supply about 500km past the railhead. That gets you beyond Madrid - without even a railhead in Spain.

[TulliusDetritus]

I see you ignore the huge geographical feature in central Spain: the "meseta" aka plateau. Both Castiles and what's in its center? Bingo, the political heart aka Madrid

Tank, flat country, definitely. The Basque mountain passes are not the Himalaya or Alps, they won't stop the enemy, not even close. And after that, the "meseta" is just right there

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

I see you ignore the huge geographical feature in central Spain: the "meseta" aka plateau. Both Castiles and what's in its center? Bingo, the political heart aka Madrid

Tank, flat country, definitely. The Basque mountain passes are not the Himalaya or Alps, they won't stop the enemy, not even close. And after that, the "meseta" is just right there

Warspite1

What? Why do you say I’ve ignored it? I’ve said the Germans would be victorious but that there would be a cost. I’ve not said what I think that cost would have been because I don’t even know the strength of the Germans. Yeah panzer country might be great - especially if the attackers have panzers. But in this “staff study” we’ve not even been told this.

[TulliusDetritus]

I don't like the zigurats. Post 504

[RangerJoe]

Well, Canfranc is in Huesca province in Aragon so it is not right along the coast but it would be opposite Vichy France. It has a nice, long tunnel which could be brought down or otherwise made unusable. The Nazi Germans took over one platform in 1942 because it was considered French territory. But escapees from Nazi occupied Europe went through there.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... atter.html

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-41445860

https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/ ... index.html

It is not just the length of the siding that counts but also the ability to offload and properly handle what the train was carrying.

[RangerJoe]

Then there is the Bordeau to Irun rail line.

The railway from Bordeaux to Irun is an important French 235-kilometre long railway line, that connects the southwestern city Bordeaux to northern Spain. The railway was opened in several stages between 1841 and 1864.

Different gauges, change trains.

Edit to include the link:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bordeaux% ... un_railway

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Well, Canfranc is in Huesca province in Aragon so it is not right along the coast but it would be opposite Vichy France. It has a nice, long tunnel which could be brought down or otherwise made unusable. The Nazi Germans took over one platform in 1942 because it was considered French territory. But escapees from Nazi occupied Europe went through there.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... atter.html

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-41445860

https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/ ... index.html

It is not just the length of the siding that counts but also the ability to offload and properly handle what the train was carrying.

warspite1

So are you suggesting Hitler will collapse Vichy just weeks after installing it?

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Then there is the Bordeau to Irun rail line.

The railway from Bordeaux to Irun is an important French 235-kilometre long railway line, that connects the southwestern city Bordeaux to northern Spain. The railway was opened in several stages between 1841 and 1864.

Different gauges, change trains.

Edit to include the link:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bordeaux% ... un_railway

warspite1

See post 481

[gamer78]

I still don't understand what the goal of 'Drang nach Osten' about capturing Spain in this thread. Conquering Turkey and going through İstanbul to Baku is 2.272 KM with todays roads. Black sea land routes though far north east border with autobahn only completed 10 years ago. At the time of WW2 it was also difficult for Turkish army to move Erzurum. Somewhere -30 degrees in winter no roads and railrods.

[UP844]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

I see you ignore the huge geographical feature in central Spain: the "meseta" aka plateau. Both Castiles and what's in its center? Bingo, the political heart aka Madrid

Tank, flat country, definitely. The Basque mountain passes are not the Himalaya or Alps, they won't stop the enemy, not even close. And after that, the "meseta" is just right there

The Spanish could have deployed in the Pyrenees at the border, and there is another mountain range NE of Madrid before you arrive in the central plateau. I also added that the German victories were obtained in countries (with the exception of Poland) that had extensive road and rail networks, which was not the case of Spain in 1940.

[TulliusDetritus]

I can't wait to see the defensive line they might set up in that mountain range NE of Madrid. 1 or 2 divisions out of 9 will contain the Wehrmacht, yes. Or they will simply outflank these poor souls Now there are 7 divisions left, assuming they did not annihilate a couple in the Basque country.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Well, Canfranc is in Huesca province in Aragon so it is not right along the coast but it would be opposite Vichy France. It has a nice, long tunnel which could be brought down or otherwise made unusable. The Nazi Germans took over one platform in 1942 because it was considered French territory. But escapees from Nazi occupied Europe went through there.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... atter.html

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-41445860

https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/ ... index.html

It is not just the length of the siding that counts but also the ability to offload and properly handle what the train was carrying.

warspite1

So are you suggesting Hitler will collapse Vichy just weeks after installing it?

No, I am not. But that would have been a fine point since Germany did not occupy that part in 1940. The article also did not state when Germany occupied it in 1942 so it might have been after the North African invasions.

Apparently Germany did not occupy that Spanish city in France, either.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

The map is more or less correct. The rail line should be *west* (or Basque country) of the franco- spanish border, not south (the map), via the mountains into Aragon region.

Two different rail lines.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: gamer78

I still don't understand what the goal of 'Drang nach Osten' about capturing Spain in this thread. Conquering Turkey and going through İstanbul to Baku is 2.272 KM with todays roads. Black sea land routes though far north east border with autobahn only completed 10 years ago. At the time of WW2 it was also difficult for Turkish army to move Erzurum. Somewhere -30 degrees in winter no roads and railrods.

Someone wants to invade Turkey so the Germans could quickly take Baku.

[TulliusDetritus]

ORIGINAL: gamer78

I still don't understand what the goal of 'Drang nach Osten' about capturing Spain in this thread.

Me neither. It's a what if. One thing is certain: the real war foes (British and soviets) are happy, the Germans are fighting inconsequential battles.

Ranger, the main rail line is not the one via Aragon region: lots of mountains there, no population centers or economic activity. It's the one in the west, mentioned by warspite. A typo.