CVPs initiating naval combat in an air impulse

[CanInf]

I have a fleet with face up CVPs in a sea zone, and wish to initiate naval combat. There are no land-based air in the sea zone. Needless to say I can't initiate because you need land-based air. CVPs don't work. fair enough, but where is this in the rules?

[paulderynck]

It's not in the rules. You should be able to initiate unless you took a land action.

You need to flip a naval unit though. If it's an Air action, you need to flip a CV with a CVP onboard.

[CanInf]

hmmm... I don't seem to be able activate with CVPs in may air impulse. In the attached file you can see I should be able to activate in the Bay of Bengal using a CVP. The game does not give me the option to use a CVP. and in the Solomons there are tons of CVPs that should be able to initiate and none can.

[Orm]

Cut from RAC: 11.5 Naval combat
....
11.5.2 Initiating a combat
To initiate a combat, pick a sea area where you have an organized (non-convoy) unit at war with another
major power, and announce that you will initiate combat there. If you have no organized units in the area (except
convoys), you can’t initiate a combat there. If you chose an air action, the unit chosen must be an air unit.
.....
CVPiF/SiF option 56: You may not designate a carrier plane as the combat initiation unit. If you designate a
CV, then its carrier plane becomes disorganized as well.

[CanInf]

ahh OK!

[Orm]

Never Mind. [:)]

[CanInf]

thanks Orm... it's kind of mad though!

[Orm]

Well. If a CV when playing without the CVP option can not initiate combat during an air impulse, then it follows, at least in my humble opinion, that a CVP can not do so either when the option is in play. Because otherwise the CVP option would change the dynamic of an air impulse when in play, and making the CV better with the CVP option...

[CanInf]

true, just a tad odd that I have blackened the skies with carrier planes and they can't do a thing!

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Orm

Well. If a CV when playing without the CVP option can not initiate combat during an air impulse, then it follows, at least in my humble opinion, that a CVP can not do so either when the option is in play. Because otherwise the CVP option would change the dynamic of an air impulse when in play, and making the CV better with the CVP option...

I disagree. I believe what is being said is the part that stays the same is a CV flips with or without option 56 in play. You should be able to flip a CV (playing without option 56) in an air impulse to initiate combat, since it functions as an air unit. And of course when a CV flips, it's CVPs (playing with option 56) must flip too.

Whether MWiF is programmed this way is another question.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: Orm

Well. If a CV when playing without the CVP option can not initiate combat during an air impulse, then it follows, at least in my humble opinion, that a CVP can not do so either when the option is in play. Because otherwise the CVP option would change the dynamic of an air impulse when in play, and making the CV better with the CVP option...

I disagree. I believe what is being said is the part that stays the same is a CV flips with or without option 56 in play. You should be able to flip a CV (playing without option 56) in an air impulse to initiate combat, since it functions as an air unit. And of course when a CV flips, it's CVPs (playing with option 56) must flip too.

Whether MWiF is programmed this way is another question.

I would agree with you on this if a CV is listed in WiF as a air unit. Is the CV listed as an air unit, or naval unit? Or both?

[paulderynck]

Seems walks, quacks and looks like a duck means it is a duck in this case. Of course I've seen many ducks that can also be naval units and even many that can be subs.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Seems walks, quacks and looks like a duck means it is a duck in this case. Of course I've seen many ducks that can also be naval units and even many that can be subs.

Yea. Why bother with rules, and the rule book, when we can just look and see if it is a duck. No way that we will get any disagreement then... [8|] [:D]

[CanInf]

The rules talk about CVPs as if they are a type of air unit or "aircraft" in RAW. But given there is an explicit exception made for CVPs when it comes to initializing, I am not sure it matters.

[paulderynck]

The question is: Playing without CVPs, can a CV initiate in an air impulse. If it can, then the rule cited above explains the mechanism for doing so when playing with CVPs.

"14.4 CVs are naval units, and move, and take part in naval combats, in accordance with the naval rules (see 11.4 and 11.5). However, a CV’s air component functions like an aircraft unit (called a ‘carrier plane’).
Carrier planes can fly air missions in the same manner as other aircraft. They can fly as either a fighter or a bomber as you choose."

All references to carrier planes in 14.4 are not references to CVPs. CVPs are covered separately in 14.4.1