Trying to understand effect of targets and best use of the air force

[Hoggorm]

In turn 23 I did recon over the U-boat factories in Bremen and Kiel since it was some time since I last bombed them. The recon showed Bremen’s size 20 factory had 4% damage and Kiel was undamaged.

So, in turn 24 I bombed the U boat factory in Bremen. It caused 79% damage but I lost a lot of aircraft even though I requested 500 bombers and 800 fighters. All parameters where the same as the bombing I did in turn 23 in the Ruhr, except that no fighters had the range to fly to the target. I do believe this was one of those missions where a lot of my fighters dropped their fuel tank and returned early. This left my bombers alone in the last part of the mission. It was a slaughter...

I did see that I lost a lot of bombers, but I did not recognize why (and I am still not sure). I only thought it had been bad luck so in turn 25 I bombed Kiel. It caused only 22% damage and again I lost a lot of bombers. Since Kiel is even further than Bremen, I believe the same mistake was done two turns in a row.

Turn 30, where the loss in VP from about 140 to 40, starts on January 5 1944 and bomccarthy responded above "Strategic victory points based on strategic bombing points drop in Jan '44 - this could explain much of the drop."

Unfortunately, I was never able to recover from those two bad turns and the VP loss at the start of turn 30...

[loki100]

I think this is where its worth remembering that a lot of the advice you are getting is framed in the context of the campaign.

The key issue is that allied bomber losses as such have no impact on VP - in those terms at least they are a free good. Now this affects the mindset (ahistorically in my view), I've a pretty pragmatic view esp with 8 AAF. In effect, every now and then I'll just take losses for an outcome - this is especially so with the U-boats/v-weapons where the VP situation is binary (not damaged = lose VP, damaged = no VP loss). So when I want to redo those regions, I know the bomber force will get cut up but crudely it will be back quicker than the targets repair.

So what I often do is create 4 subsections to 8 AAF. 2 are based around the B-17s and represent my bulk strikes, they either work together or take out something different but usually roam around Central Germany. The B-26s go into another group and if you can avoid drop tanks carry a really decent bomb load. These I often use for the U-boats and if they get badly cut up so be it. Finally the B-24s (and I usually add the CW liberators to this group) do deep raids or take out more esoteric targets. While I tend not to put them in harms way (unlike the B-24s), if they get caught, well ... they recover.

Or another way of putting it, the only way you can get at the Bremen-Kiel U-boats and not take heavy losses in 1943 is to go in very heavy. Prepare a couple of turns so that your fighters are available, and then send every bomber you have. You should overwhelm the defenders but I think my rather cynical B-24 ploy works as well (in the campaign) as I just want to keep those factories with enough damage so I don't shed too much VP).

[cfulbright]

If you're losing a lot of bombers in daytime raids, go back to using Bomber Command at night with the 14x1000lb loadouts, targeting HI, for example.

Cary

[cfulbright]

I agree with everything Loki is saying if you're playing one of the air/ground campaigns (e.g., 1943-45 Grand Campaign). But for Hoggorm's purposes, where he's playing one of the air-only scenarios, aircraft losses do count heavily against the Allies, so he needs to weigh that in his planning.

Hoggorm - you also can think about taking off turns. I know it's boring, but you don't need to bomb every week because previously damaged targets are the gift that keeps on giving. To Loki's point, use a couple of turns to prep for that really important raid and get your fighters back up to max strength and morale. Make sure you're looking at the Air Weather forecast for the next turn to decide whether it's better to fly this turn or wait until next turn.

Cary

[Hoggorm]

ORIGINAL: loki100

I think this is where its worth remembering that a lot of the advice you are getting is framed in the context of the campaign.

I see there is a difference. I did not expect so though because the description of the scenario is that one can use it to try different strategies. It does not seem to be very good at that if the strategies learned do not apply fully to the grand campaign.

I have to admit that I have not started the grand campaign yet exactly because I did not fully understood the air war part. Maybe I just should try and give it a go...?

ORIGINAL: cfulbright

Hoggorm - you also can think about taking off turns.

Yes, that is a good point and I do so as well sometimes. Always in snowy and heavy rain weather.

[cfulbright]

I forgot to ask, or you may have mentioned this previously: Are you resting air groups with low morale? In ground campaigns I rest all air groups with 50 or lower morale (you can use filters to identify them in the Commanders Report), and most air groups with 51-55 morale.

In an air-only campaign you may want to rest all groups with morale of 60 or less. And if that doesn't leave you enough bombers and/or escorts for an AD, it might be good not to fly it that turn.

Also, I assume you're only flying three days per week for each AD?

Cary

[Hoggorm]

Cary,

Yes I rest them. I always put crews with morale less than 54 and fatigue more than 21 to rest.

I normally do not fly more than two days a week, as I feel going for three drops morale much faster. Air superiority and recon I fly up to five days a week though.

My intention is to do the full campaign, so the air only scenario is just to learn stuff before going to war for «real» =)

[cfulbright]

Hi Hoggorm,

You're learning the strategic bombing component, which is very helpful, but you still will need to experiment with the tactical air part - which has many opinions - and of course the ground part. I look forward to hearing how you enjoy it.

Cary

[Hoggorm]

Thank you Cary,

Yes there is a lot to learn. I did focus on the tactical part earlier, and feel I know the basics there. The same with ground combat. Strategic bombing was left until now =)

We`ll see how it goes. I`ll ask questions for sure!

[Hoggorm]

Ok, so I've started the 1944 D-Day start campaign.

I see that I start to loose VP straight away. Fair enough, I expected that.

However I see that I did not gain any U boat VPs even though I did bomb, and damage Uboat sites in turn 2.

I also see that I instead gain a few V-Weapon VP, even though I did not bomb those... I guess that might be because one is already damaged from the start, but so were U-Boats, and they did not gain any VP...

[Hoggorm]

U-Boat VP

[Hoggorm]

U-Boat damage

[Hoggorm]

V-Weapon VP

[Hoggorm]

V-Weapon damage

[EddyBear81]

You're doing it wrong, man.

You can only gain U-boat VPs in 1943, so it will always be 0 in the D-Day Start scenario
V-Weapons VP (as well a U-boat VPs) are negative VP : if you do not bomb them, you get negative VPs, that count against you final score as Allies.
=> Bomb those sites or you will pay for it. And you will quickly learn that these targets are mandatory (the VP Penalty is big)

Details of the rule are in the Manual.

Good luck on your first campaign !

[cfulbright]

Hoggorm,

U-Boat VP's only happen in 1943 turns, then they stop occurring. V-Weapon VP's only happen in 1944 and 1945. And assuming you're playing the Allies, you don't "gain" those points, you just lose more or less of them each turn. If you can damage all the V-weapon factories and launching sites, or take them, you'll lose no VP's that turn.

Assuming this is turn 2, it looks like your British and Canadian units lost a lot of men attacking Caen. That's normal. Remember that a lost non-American is worth twice a lost American for purposes of VP's.

Cary

[Hoggorm]

So in 1944 there is no need to bomb the Uboat factories at all?

Yes, this was turn 2. My invasion is not going well at all! I am now at turn 5 and have not gained more than a few hexes. The Germans replases the losses I cause them every turn. I'll give the scenario a few more turns before I start over...

[cfulbright]

Correct, no need to bomb U-boat factories, that's only in the 1943 grand campaign.

Make sure you have 2nd BR Army landed on your invasion site and unloaded. On one turn transfer armored support units to it. The next turn your infantry divisions can draw on those armored support units.

Make sure you have engineer units assigned for assaults.

Target only one hex each for attacks by the US and BR per turn for the first few turns until you've bled the Germans. Use 1/3 of your FB's to unit bomb one hex, 1/3 to interdict that hex, and assign 1/3 to Ground Support. If you can get on three sides of a German unit and attack with nine divisions, do so.

Make sure you've transferred all your artilley units to the Corps HQ's making the attacks.

Also, move Naval TF's into hexes 77,193 and 78,193 to support attacks on Caen. The two US TF's and BR TF S all have battleships, so they're the best to use.

Cary

[Hoggorm]

ORIGINAL: cfulbright

Make sure you have 2nd BR Army landed on your invasion site and unloaded. On one turn transfer armored support units to it. The next turn your infantry divisions can draw on those armored support units.

Make sure you have engineer units assigned for assaults.

Target only one hex each for attacks by the US and BR per turn for the first few turns until you've bled the Germans. Use 1/3 of your FB's to unit bomb one hex, 1/3 to interdict that hex, and assign 1/3 to Ground Support. If you can get on three sides of a German unit and attack with nine divisions, do so.

Make sure you've transferred all your artilley units to the Corps HQ's making the attacks.

Also, move Naval TF's into hexes 77,193 and 78,193 to support attacks on Caen. The two US TF's and BR TF S all have battleships, so they're the best to use.

Cary

Thank you Cary!

I see that the start of my invasion did not go as well as I hoped for. I never brought the Army HQ ashore, and kept my Corps HQ on ships just off the landing beaches as well. I will continue the scenario for a few more turns to see how everything turns out.

Regarding the air force I am bombing Railway and Railyards for some distance behind the front. I also did interdiction with my FB for about 4-5 hexes behind the front. With this I hope that the German front line combat units will lack supplies and have a harder time replacing its units on the front. Still I see that the Germans hold every hex I attack so I think my start was less then optimal...

I see that I have a lot of questions regarding the ground war as well, but since that is not really related to this topic I might start a new thread dealing with those issues.

[cfulbright]

Hoggorm,

Corps HQ at sea serve no purpose other than to suffer casualties from Axis naval interdiction. Their artillery support units only work if they're unloaded onto the land.

If you're playing the AI, bombing railways doesn't have much effect because the AI essentially "cheats". AI units "teleport" and don't actually use the railways to move. Bombing railyards has some effect on Axis supply, but I would just use 8th AF and Bomber Command to hit the railyards within 10 hexes of the invasion sites on the first turn, then use the havy bombers on ground attack.

Ground Attack interdiction should be ON or within one hex behind the enemy line so they suffer losses when they retreat. Definitely no reason to interdict 4-5 hexes behind the front line! Make sure you turn off "FHEX On", as there's no reason to interdict friendly hexes, assuming your units won't be retreating.

Many long-time people and players on this forum recommend ground attack/interdiction over ground/unit. I personally use ground attack/unit almost exclusively, except in the very first turn of the D-Day scenario, before the Allied units have landed. On that turn I use all the Allied fighter bombers to interdict the landing hexes and if possible one hex behind them so when my units land, they both have an easier time, and the retreating Germans retreat through an interdicted hex. But after that it's pure ground attack/unit on single hexes that I'm targeting for a ground attack. I don't find that my air units suffer higher casualities by targeting units, as some say they do, and I find that destroying ground element by air as effective as interdicting them by air and then giving them a push. But as I said, there's a debate about this.

There's no debate, I think, about 1) using interdiction on the invasion hexes and one hex behind them on Turn 1; or 2) only interdicting one hex behind the front line after that.

I hope that helps.

Cary