The question to ask about The Italians

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

One part of Mussolini's agenda was to get to Suez. Germany has a plan for that now. Not including Italy in German plans for Northern Europe is one thing. They would have to be included in plans for the Med.

warspite1

AGAIN - please have the decency to read what I write.

Did you not read the section on the Balkans???? So which part of the Balkans is in Northern Europe???? Yugoslavia and Greece were in the Italian sphere of interest. Hitler made numerous plans in the Balkans and never involved Mussolini. Are you seriously counting Romania - or indeed any part of the Balkans as Northern Europe????

As history showed, Italy would be involved in plans to the extent that Hitler believed Mussolini should be involved.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

The Med was Mussolini's theater. So, German operations in that theater would have to be coordinated with Italy. Did Rommel arrive in North Africa without Italian knowledge? Of course not - he needed the RM to get there.

warspite1

Sorry, which rule was that in your war game book, 15(a)? As said previously, Hitler would tell Mussolini EXACTLY what Hitler wanted Mussolini to know. There was no rule book that Hitler had to follow.

Don't embarrass me or yourself by claiming that I'm suggesting Sunflower could happen without Mussolini's knowledge given that Germans were being delivered in conjunction with the RM [8|] - shameful comment.

But that is completely different from operations that Mussolini doesn't need to know about, and Hitler, ever mistrustful of the Italians ability to keep a secret, would be the arbiter of that.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

He will be very happy about Axis control of Gibraltar. The only reason Spain needs to be included in the plans is to protect Italy. If Italy stays neutral, Spain is safe.

warspite1

And that ladies and gentlemen is about as naïve a post as any written in this entire thread.

Sentence one - you have no clue and this is proven by the use of the word Axis*. One of the main reasons I've said this is a DAFS is because everyone in your scenario is happy to subordinate themselves entirely to Germany. NO, Mussolini won't be happy that Franco has been replaced with a German puppet. And that German puppet now controls the keys to the western exit.

Sentence two and three - erm.... I tell you what, I'll leave that and allow you time to think about it.


* Which I seem to recall you doing when trying to disingenuously make the claim that Japan was bound by the armistice in its dealings with Vichy France. No, Curtis Lemay, Axis and Germany are not the same thing. As well you know.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Note that Axis units were able to move all over Greece, including across the spine of the main mountain chain. As I said, if a military unit (with towed artillery) can move through terrain, so can supply columns.

warspite1

I bow to your in depth knowledge of the geography of northwest Greece. Next time I have a choice between you and an SPI game map and a US military study, I'll be sure to kick the army professionals into the tall grass.

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

And, the key point here is..... I repeat, claims that the Germans never encountered terrain like in Spain or Turkey were false.

warspite1

And we're back to not bothering to read my posts again. When I have suggested otherwise then sure, you can post that comment as relevant in responses to me. But once again. And for the hundredth time. And for the avoidance of doubt (I wish [8|]) I have never said anything to the contrary.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Being a grownup, I don't issue insults in a debate.

warspite1

I'm not going to have a debate with you on what is an insult and what is just a healthy robust challenge between two people with opposing views.

But you appear upset by the term so I am not going to use DAFS again. I've made my point, I've said why I don't believe your "staff study' outlines a proposed counterfactual in a dispassionate, sensible, fair and reasonable way.

End of the day none of this happened, neither of us can be proved right or wrong - but we can try and make our respective cases for why we think our own stance could have happened - or we can take your approach which in many cases has simply been "I am right".

I've put some time, effort, and thought into trying to justify why I believe you are wrong and have put what I believe is a more realistic timescale in place. Instead of your usual litany of unsupported one liners, it would be nice if you did the same.

Now that I've agreed to not use DAFS, perhaps you could do me the courtesy of:

a) reading what I write in cases where you then comment critically.
b) when I've explained something (often more than once) don't then say you are not a mind reader and tell me to spell it out, when all you need to do is keep up with the argument
c) when I've asked a question and you've given an answer, don't simply repeat exactly the same thing a few posts later. If you find you are giving the same answer then perhaps the courtesy of further explanation is appropriate
d) and most of all, please don't take my comments out of context by only answering one part of a sentence or paragraph and leaving out the rest of what I've written

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: UP844

A fine analysis, including the part ab Italy. [&o]

I think there is an abyss between a winning Axis strategy in a game and reality.

warspite1

Thank-you - especially for your thoughts on Franco and Mussolini which I hadn't initially given sufficient weight too. And thanks to all of you who have raised some very pertinent points that have helped me shape the arguments I've constructed.

A Med first strategy is an interesting one and knowing what we know, it is possible the Germans could have kicked the British out of Egypt via Libya (and the knock on effect could well have been Spain and maybe even Turkey joining the Axis on a voluntary basis).

One thing I didn't really appreciate before was just how badly Hitler mucked up from the 26th June 1940 onwards. I guess I've always had a Battle of Britain/Sea Lion focus so superficially it doesn't appear Hitler was wasting time - he just chose wrong. But fact is - from the moment the French wanted to come to terms, he just didn't know what to do, and for a country that couldn't cope with a long drawn out war.... that was kind of a problem.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: UP844

A fine analysis, including the part ab Italy. [&o]

I think there is an abyss between a winning Axis strategy in a game and reality.

warspite1

Thank-you - especially for your thoughts on Franco and Mussolini which I hadn't initially given sufficient weight too. And thanks to all of you who have raised some very pertinent points that have helped me shape the arguments I've constructed.

A Med first strategy is an interesting one and knowing what we know, it is possible the Germans could have kicked the British out of Egypt via Libya (and the knock on effect could well have been Spain and maybe even Turkey joining the Axis on a voluntary basis).

One thing I didn't really appreciate before was just how badly Hitler mucked up from the 26th June 1940 onwards. I guess I've always had a Battle of Britain/Sea Lion focus so superficially it doesn't appear Hitler was wasting time - he just chose wrong. But fact is - from the moment the French wanted to come to terms, he just didn't know what to do, and for a country that couldn't cope with a long drawn out war.... that was kind of a problem.

This is where military staff studies should have come into play. Not just Armee, Luftwaffe or Kriegsmarine alone, but combined arms. Such would have been important for the invasion of Britain, et al. By having something to work with, even if they have to be modified, it would go a lot quicker.

Such as the invasion of Britain even if France did not surrender but the Germans did gain the Channel coast across from England. If the BEF evacuated, then what? Probably no invasion but continue with France. If the BEF is still in France and has been reinforced, then invade. If the BEF is in France but not reinforced, then probably not invade. But if the BEF has been destroyed or is still in France and has been reinforced, then invade by air and what you can quickly get across the Channel.

With that latter situation planned for, then the destruction of the trapped BEF would then be too important to leave for the Luftwaffe alone and the Armee would then attack instead of waiting. Then the invasion is readied. Not just barges as landing craft but also any ferries that can arrive there quickly and used as Ro-Ro vessels.

Even if they could only go one time, they can bring a lot of heavy equipment across that the British may not be equipped to stop. No Mark Is allowed unless no other tank can make it, concentrate on using the Mark IVs, the Czech tanks, and the Mark IIIs. If the panzers can also double as Prime Movers for the artillery pieces, especially relatively stationary Flak guns, then they should do so. If possible, the tanks should also tow supply and fuel trailers - at least until they get ready for heavy combat.

Staff studies were done all of the time and are still done. Even if they are just classroom exercises for military staff. There was at least one done for the US to invade Big Canada Land if the Nazis took it over, it should have been broken down for certain areas.

[warspite1]

I’ve been reading German Military Strategy and Spain in World War II (Burdick) since it arrived yesterday. This is a serious book (more primary sources than you could shake a stick at, and clearly this guy has done his homework) and I would recommend to anyone who has found this thread interesting.

There are a number of things to say, but above all, what I have discovered is that Curtis Lemay’s proposed timescale was impossible.

Lemay has said that in this scenario an attack on Gibraltar (as part of a wider Med-first strategy) was to have been considered by Germany from the very start of the war. I will not repeat what I’ve said about this being most unlikely previously but, for the purposes of this post, will just go with it.

Lemay has also admitted that the Spain part of the strategy is only possible with Italy in the war – he said “The only reason Spain needs to be included in the plans is to protect Italy. If Italy stays neutral, Spain is safe”.

Okay so, on that basis, there would have been no conversations about Spain until 10 June, when Mussolini decided to enter a war on the basis it was already won. As we know, in the weeks and months leading up to the fall of France, Hitler had had his plate full – he certainly had no time to consider operations that weren’t even possible at that time.

But after 10th June, let’s be fair and say the conditions in France were such that Hitler could perhaps have devoted some of his time to Spain/Gibraltar. However, let’s also be reasonable and say that Hitler doesn’t know what France is going to do, and there is a distinct possibility she will seek to fight on from Algeria. Therefore any such conversations that happen around Spain are not really going to kick into gear until the 26th June when the Armistice is done and in effect.

After that the situation in France is now crystalised (although the UK – as far as Germany is concerned - remains a fully paid up member of the awkward squad). We shall leave all mention of BoB/Sea Lion and the UK mainland out of this for now.

Lemay believes a July start date for an attack on Spain is possible because, as we know, he ignores the political and the economic, and he also ignores that not everyone in World War II was working for Germany’s benefit. But it has also been touched upon that he’s ignored the military and the time it would take for the Germans to rest and refit after Yellow and Red.

But what this book makes clear is that he’s also ignored what the German military felt it necessary to do to prepare for Felix i.e. an operation against Gibraltar remember, with active and full Spanish co-operation. The amount of undercover intelligence gathering and reconnaissance work was huge. The amount – and more importantly the length - of specialist training that the proposed assault forces undertook, meant a July start would have been simply impossible.

Of course a case could be argued that those units could, in theory, be taken out of the line to be trained for Felix (and in the interests of fairness let’s just go with that and assume that was operationally possible), but remember, that wouldn’t have happened until the 10th June at the very earliest. It is unclear how quickly the units would have been ready but I am sensing, from what I've read, three months at least*.

*Remember, these are just the assault forces for Gibraltar. Once the attempts to persuade Franco have failed, there will also be the need to prepare the forces to attack Spain.

The British were updating the defences of Gibraltar all the time, hence the intelligence gathering in addition to the normal surveying of the proposed battleground. Again, to be fair, this could have been carried out as per real life as Franco has no suspicions that Germany will attack them if he refuses not to participate. However, this means that the assault on Spain can't start ahead of the Gibraltar assault forces being ready, because Germany needs Spain's co-operation for this work.

But perhaps even more worrying for Lemay’s “staff study” are the comments about the Spanish infrastructure – and no, this is not confined to the rail roads which we've touched upon, and which are in even poorer shape than has so far been outlined, but also roads and bridges. We can look at this more in another post.

A July start date? Based on historical German records and documents that’s a definite no.

[warspite1]

Another aspect of the “staff study” that suspends disbelief – perhaps the biggest – is that Hitler would even consider attacking Spain. Many have commented on this thread that they simply don’t believe Hitler would have considered this. German Military Strategy and Spain in World War II (Burdick) brings this into focus. I won’t repeat the reasons why such a move would have been so difficult for Hitler to have ordered. These have been outlined numerous times and, let’s face it, are pretty obvious.

There was one reason that I considered that Hitler might just have thrown all those arguments out of the window and just ordered the operation anyway. I have kept in mind that in making this decision, Barbarossa would be postponed (which is another massive leap but again let’s suspend disbelief and just go with that too).

Hitler was not a man who liked to be said no to, and it could be argued that he was particularly aggrieved at Franco’s stance. Why? Well, German blood helped to install Franco in the first place and Franco, in refusing, was simply being ungrateful and unreasonable.

Okay…. but what could tip Hitler over the edge? Well in addition to the above, by late September, when Hitler was actually sold on the need for taking Gibraltar, there was also the following to consider:

- Hitler had seen the summer months of 1940 wasted following the armistice with France.
- Hitler’s dream of bringing the UK to heel were dashed
- Worse, in being dashed, the Luftwaffe had been severely mauled
- The Kriegsmarine had been severely mauled in Norway
- Mussolini had declared war and Hitler expected this announcement to be followed by a surprise attack on Corsica or Malta…. but instead, Mussolini’s forces had done..... nothing, other than a recent march over the border into Egypt, whereupon they set up camp.

So, added to Franco’s ungratefulness we have Hitler who is now in a very bad mood about how things are not panning out. As we enter the New Year and move into January and February, Franco is still stalling - despite making positive noises - and to add to the above:

- The Battle of Britain has been a bit of a disaster
- The Italian attack on Greece has failed – and indeed they are in danger of losing Albania!
- Part of the Italian fleet has been crippled at Taranto
- The Italians have suffered defeat after defeat and have been pushed back out of Egypt, out of Cyrenaica and back into Tripolitania.
- Hitler has already had to send the first of two divisions to Libya to stop a complete collapse.

Finally Hitler snaps, gets real and admits that Germany can’t possibly open up a second front with the USSR with all this going on. Incensed by everything going wrong, Hitler postpones Barbarossa, and the attack on Spain happens in the Spring of 1941.

Again, this is just a suggestion to make the scenario work and not my personal opinion of what was possible.

What the book makes clear are the tortured back and forwards between Franco and Hitler. I hadn’t realised that the Germans had not only selected the forces and commanders (this I knew from various war games), but that the assault forces had actually undergone specific training (at locations that best mirrored the target). There was also extensive intelligence, reconnaissance and survey work carried out, not only targeting Gibraltar, but also the state of Spain’s infrastructure and how difficult it was going to be to get down to Gibraltar – even in the non-hostile environment envisaged.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Maybe quit calling it a Dream Axis Fanboi Scenario and call it a Dream Axis Fanboi Territory and thus DAFT then anybody favoring it would then be a DAFT person.

Maybe he should not grow up, maybe he should mature a little. I, for obvious reasons, won't state mature a little more.

Anybody still under the illusion that this isn't an insult? Of course it's an insult. And everyone who takes the German side of a historical argument is eventually smeared with it. I expect it from this character - every post he makes contains an insult. He's not fit to have a conversation with. But I thought Warspite1 was finer stuff.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: warspite1

warspite1

No. I am not. I have never been in the military, I've never been to the hills of northwestern Greece/Albania.

That is why I may have an opinion and I may offer up an opinion, but it is purely that. When I read what professional soldiers - who have made a study of the terrain and know what is involved in supplying a Greek army - have to say, I tend to take notice of it and not simply dismiss it out of hand because it doesn't fit what I want it to say.

Note that Axis units were able to move all over Greece, including across the spine of the main mountain chain. As I said, if a military unit (with towed artillery) can move through terrain, so can supply columns.

Regardless, supplies could have run from Athens to the west coast, then to the Albanian front.



The real reason they couldn't be supplied via Athens is because the German lines had advanced so quickly they interdicted any supply path.

And, the key point here is: Note all the combat across rugged terrain that ensued. I repeat, claims that the Germans never encountered terrain like in Spain or Turkey were false.

As can be seen from an actual, real map with the arrows of the German movements, they went through the river valleys between the mountains and not over them. They also attacked where the majority of the Allied military was not.

Here is something to read about loaded truck operations on grades:

http://onlinepubs.trb.org/Onlinepubs/tr ... v2-011.pdf

Oh! They just took the rivers and left the hills themselves to the enemy?? Are you out of your mind? Of course they had to clear the hills too. And Turkey and Spain have rivers through the hills too. And they will attack where the Spanish and Turks are not as well.

Do you have a link about loaded trucks pulling artillery on grade? Are you seriously saying the German army is going to be ground to a halt by ROAD GRADES!!!??? Talk about desperation.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

As I have made crystal clear, options were presented Hitler (why do you say they weren't?)

Not the specific option I'm proposing - which is what I actually said, had you read it.

and indeed he ultimately did decide that he wanted to take out Gibraltar. If you'd bothered to read what I wrote, two of the occasions Jodl mentions Gibraltar are before Italy is even in the war. But not until late summer was Hitler seemingly much interested.

But Franco wouldn't play ball. He tried very hard to make Franco change his mind, but Franco would not budge on demands that Hitler either couldn't accept (military hardware), wouldn't accept (food - although that was probably pushing it too) or could accept but would cause him too many problems (French Morocco). Furthermore Hitler's own shopping list (including the transfer of one Canary Island!) was too much for Franco.

Despite a summer of intense frustration where he'd seen Goering let him down on his boasts and a lot of the hard won victories were being negated by months of stagnation and wasted time (which Germany didn't have to spare) and defeat, Hitler still refused to countenance attacking Spain.

The issue is when such a "staff Study" was to be prepared. I have tried to make my case for when - if you believe this should have been top of Hitler's priority list in 1939, why don't YOU try and put some effort in for a change and make YOUR case.

When it is prepared will make a difference as to whether it can convince Hitler. If it is prepared from the get go, it has a much better chance of being adopted.

As I have said, all that is required to tumble to it is a recognition that they don't have reasonable chances to get across the channel and they will need Middle Eastern oil. Also, if Italy joins up, making the Med an Axis lake will greatly reduce the threat to them.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

And we're back to not bothering to read my posts again. When I have suggested otherwise then sure, you can post that comment as relevant in responses to me. But once again. And for the hundredth time. And for the avoidance of doubt (I wish [8|]) I have never said anything to the contrary.

Others did. You're not the only one I'm up against.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Did you not read the section on the Balkans???? So which part of the Balkans is in Northern Europe???? Yugoslavia and Greece were in the Italian sphere of interest. Hitler made numerous plans in the Balkans and never involved Mussolini. Are you seriously counting Romania - or indeed any part of the Balkans as Northern Europe????

So if I say Northern Europe as opposed to the Med, you're going to parse that in the most craven fashion just to gain brownie points? I have to list every country Mussolini would not need to be informed about? Good grief!

As history showed, Italy would be involved in plans to the extent that Hitler believed Mussolini should be involved.

That's all I ever meant. And the Germans adopting a Med strategy would definitely be one of those cases.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

And that ladies and gentlemen is about as naïve a post as any written in this entire thread.

Sentence one - you have no clue and this is proven by the use of the word Axis*. One of the main reasons I've said this is a DAFS is because everyone in your scenario is happy to subordinate themselves entirely to Germany. NO, Mussolini won't be happy that Franco has been replaced with a German puppet. And that German puppet now controls the keys to the western exit.

Italy is in the war and it is definitely better for Gibraltar to be controlled by an Axis power than an Allied power from their perspective.

Sentence two and three - erm.... I tell you what, I'll leave that and allow you time to think about it.

I stand by them. Why would the Germans care about the Med if Italy is not in the war? Italy stays neutral the Germans can move straight on to Turkey.

* Which I seem to recall you doing when trying to disingenuously make the claim that Japan was bound by the armistice in its dealings with Vichy France. No, Curtis Lemay, Axis and Germany are not the same thing. As well you know.

Japan was part of the Axis, and Axis capture of a Vichy colony didn't have any impact on Vichy status. To say that Japan's Axis status was irrelevant to Vichy is nonsense.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I bow to your in depth knowledge of the geography of northwest Greece. Next time I have a choice between you and an SPI game map and a US military study, I'll be sure to kick the army professionals into the tall grass.

How about that map I posted? It sure seems to show the Axis marching all over Greece. Maybe you didn't read those professionals right.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

So if I say Northern Europe as opposed to the Med, you're going to parse that in the most craven fashion just to gain brownie points? I have to list every country Mussolini would not need to be informed about? Good grief!

warspite1

Craven? Brownie points? What is wrong with you?

This has nothing to do with such childish antics. YOU said Hitler didn't have to tell Mussolini about things that didn't concern him. Well the Balkans DID concern Mussolini - and Hitler felt he didn't need to tell him about moves he was making in the Balkans.

So no, this had nothing to do with childish point scoring - and everything to do with the fact that you don't seem to understand where anywhere is and therefore, why Mussolini felt he should be consulted.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Another aspect of the “staff study” that suspends disbelief – perhaps the biggest – is that Hitler would even consider attacking Spain. Many have commented on this thread that they simply don’t believe Hitler would have considered this. German Military Strategy and Spain in World War II (Burdick) brings this into focus. I won’t repeat the reasons why such a move would have been so difficult for Hitler to have ordered. These have been outlined numerous times and, let’s face it, are pretty obvious.

There was one reason that I considered that Hitler might just have thrown all those arguments out of the window and just ordered the operation anyway. I have kept in mind that in making this decision, Barbarossa would be postponed (which is another massive leap but again let’s suspend disbelief and just go with that too).

Hitler was not a man who liked to be said no to, and it could be argued that he was particularly aggrieved at Franco’s stance. Why? Well, German blood helped to install Franco in the first place and Franco, in refusing, was simply being ungrateful and unreasonable.

Okay…. but what could tip Hitler over the edge? Well in addition to the above, by late September, when Hitler was actually sold on the need for taking Gibraltar, there was also the following to consider:

- Hitler had seen the summer months of 1940 wasted following the armistice with France.
- Hitler’s dream of bringing the UK to heel were dashed
- Worse, in being dashed, the Luftwaffe had been severely mauled
- The Kriegsmarine had been severely mauled in Norway
- Mussolini had declared war and Hitler expected this announcement to be followed by a surprise attack on Corsica or Malta…. but instead, Mussolini’s forces had done..... nothing, other than a recent march over the border into Egypt, whereupon they set up camp.

So, added to Franco’s ungratefulness we have Hitler who is now in a very bad mood about how things are not panning out. As we enter the New Year and move into January and February, Franco is still stalling - despite making positive noises - and to add to the above:

- The Battle of Britain has been a bit of a disaster
- The Italian attack on Greece has failed – and indeed they are in danger of losing Albania!
- Part of the Italian fleet has been crippled at Taranto
- The Italians have suffered defeat after defeat and have been pushed back out of Egypt, out of Cyrenaica and back into Tripolitania.
- Hitler has already had to send the first of two divisions to Libya to stop a complete collapse.

Finally Hitler snaps, gets real and admits that Germany can’t possibly open up a second front with the USSR with all this going on. Incensed by everything going wrong, Hitler postpones Barbarossa, and the attack on Spain happens in the Spring of 1941.

Again, this is just a suggestion to make the scenario work and not my personal opinion of what was possible.

What the book makes clear are the tortured back and forwards between Franco and Hitler. I hadn’t realised that the Germans had not only selected the forces and commanders (this I knew from various war games), but that the assault forces had actually undergone specific training (at locations that best mirrored the target). There was also extensive intelligence, reconnaissance and survey work carried out, not only targeting Gibraltar, but also the state of Spain’s infrastructure and how difficult it was going to be to get down to Gibraltar – even in the non-hostile environment envisaged.

If you read that link about the roads, while it deals with logging trucks in the Western United States in the mountains, you can relate it somewhat to the European roads, especially those pictures of trucks in the Western Soviet Union after a rainstorm. Only a person in the DAFT area would think that the main roads back then are like the main roads now. This is also not mentioning cobble stone roadways which are very fun when they are wet or icy.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I bow to your in depth knowledge of the geography of northwest Greece. Next time I have a choice between you and an SPI game map and a US military study, I'll be sure to kick the army professionals into the tall grass.

How about that map I posted? It sure seems to show the Axis marching all over Greece. Maybe you didn't read those professionals right.

From what I saw, the Germans did not march all over Greece. It would be difficult to march all over Greece, it could result in excessive injuries and it did not have to be done. The Germans went through the valleys more than anywhere else.

BTW, how is your pharmaceutical supply holding up? I would not want use to run out of anything.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay



Note that Axis units were able to move all over Greece, including across the spine of the main mountain chain. As I said, if a military unit (with towed artillery) can move through terrain, so can supply columns.

Regardless, supplies could have run from Athens to the west coast, then to the Albanian front.



The real reason they couldn't be supplied via Athens is because the German lines had advanced so quickly they interdicted any supply path.

And, the key point here is: Note all the combat across rugged terrain that ensued. I repeat, claims that the Germans never encountered terrain like in Spain or Turkey were false.

As can be seen from an actual, real map with the arrows of the German movements, they went through the river valleys between the mountains and not over them. They also attacked where the majority of the Allied military was not.

Here is something to read about loaded truck operations on grades:

http://onlinepubs.trb.org/Onlinepubs/tr ... v2-011.pdf

Oh! They just took the rivers and left the hills themselves to the enemy?? Are you out of your mind? Of course they had to clear the hills too. And Turkey and Spain have rivers through the hills too. And they will attack where the Spanish and Turks are not as well.

Do you have a link about loaded trucks pulling artillery on grade? Are you seriously saying the German army is going to be ground to a halt by ROAD GRADES!!!??? Talk about desperation.

If the enemy units stay on the hills, they would eventually be cut off from supplies, surrounded and wiped out. It also depends upon how wide the river valleys are as to whether the hills would have to be immediately cleared.

Yes, the German army would be ground to a halt on ROAD GRADES. Even the modern American Army would be halted by ROAD GRADES as far as moving equipment and supplies on steep grades. It is not just the ROAD GRADES, it is also what the road surface is made from as well as the road bed itself - not to mention drainage systems to remove excess water. Ever see a tank or an armoured vehicle slipping on an icy road? They can easily slide off a road, lose a track, then block the road. Mud is also slippery whether it is black dirt or wet clay. Then even lose rock on a road surface can cause trouble.

Would you have a tank assigned to pull a loaded truck up a steep grade? How about a enemy rifleman shooting up the truck? Take out the radiator and the engine overheats and locks up. How about the brakes? Are there pull offs for the trucks to cool their brakes? How about tires and a flat tire? How about that enemy rifleman shooting out a tire causing a blowout? What happens to the truck on a turn when the outside steer tire blows out? Off the road it goes. If it is on a switchback, then it can then tumble down the hill, crossing the road and possibly meeting other vehicles. What happens to the load? Fuel would be trouble, ammo or explosives could be a blast, and personnel on a truck could be flung all over - which could ruin their whole day.

BTW, how is your pharmaceutical supplies holding out?