The question to ask about The Italians

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: warspite1

What?

How many ways can you interpret the quote from the US military study????

....based upon the maps I've posted, it is clear that any claim that there is no path from Athens to the Albanian border except via Salonika if false. A blind man can see it - just not you......

warspite1

......or the professional soldiers of the US Army.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: warspite1

How many ways can you interpret what the German supply officers have said????

]

Again, that was under a friendly Spain. That limited what the Germans could do. A campaign in Spain allows rail repair.

warspite1

Please stop you are just embarrassing yourself. Let's be completely clear on what you've just said.

So if the Spanish invite the Germans in and the Germans want to rebuild/repair the Spanish rail infrastructure (both for the Gibraltar operation and to ensure communications are up to scratch if ever there is an invasion of Spain) the Spanish would deny the Germans the chance to assist with repairing the shattered Spanish railways??

Interesting...... [X(]

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Lemay can harp on all he wants about the size and state of the Spanish army. But the fact is that by the Germans own calculations, even a Spain friendly scenario - and with everything going smoothly - would mean this operation taking almost as long it took the Germans to beat France.

Six weeks.

The Germans have a narrow front to attack from with no diversion of Spanish force elsewhere. Everything would depend on how long the Spanish could hold the Germans up in the hills and mountains along the border, how much damage they could do to the rail line and roads (destroying bridges and collapsing tunnels) and thus give Spain time to mobilise fully. Much too depends on the response from the British. Do they know how vulnerable the German supply line is in on the border?

Strategic surprise trumps much of that. The tiny Spanish army is in a peacetime deployment - located all over the country.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: warspite1

The comment re Piteas and UP844 was about as childish as it gets. No, you don't DEFER to these gentlemen because of their nationality, but you can seek to engage with them to understand more about their views which, given their nationality MAY prove of interest to the debate. But apparently that thought never occurred to you - but then it wouldn't would it? You are Curtis Lemay and you are always right and neither believed what you were saying to be correct.

You seem to think I should defer to anyone Spanish about Spain and anyone Italian about Italy.

warspite1

Which part of the English language do you not understand?????? I've said exactly the opposite and in posting that you simply make yourself look cheap. Not for the first time your debating style is dishonest and you seek to accuse me of saying things I haven't said. Apology please.[/quote]

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Yep, those designers thoughts may be material to the discussion. But you have not a single clue as to their thinking behind rule '15(b)'. If I am wrong please provide their designers notes confirming their reasoning for the capital rule. If you don't know this then you are putting absolute faith in something you don't even understand. How can you think that is sensible?

I'm not putting absolute faith in them. Just more faith than in the anyone on this board.

warspite1

Yes, you are putting faith in them that they've come up with 15(b) for the right reasons even though you have absolutely no idea what those reasons are?? Absolutely priceless.[/quote]

[warspite1]

Answered later.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: warspite1

So you think the British will sit there, allow Spain to be conquered and then, only when Gibraltar is attacked, will they make their move in the Canaries???? You need to think more about what you are saying - and the comment about Crete was a hoot.

I don't think Franco will agree to British possession of their colonies any more than the French allowed them into FNA. They will expect, as the French did, for them to lodge themselves on the mainland - where the war is. If they violate that, Spain would be a real danger to become an Axis ally.

warspite1

Again with the totally mindless, irrelevant mentioning of French North Africa.... totally clueless.

To be fair I understand why you are totally lost in terms of the importance of the Canary Islands in the event Gibraltar is lost - I mean after all, the Canaries are not in the game you played. Perhaps the game makers didn't think the Canaries important - or perhaps they couldn't get them to fit on the map?

So once again, I (and others) give logical, sound reasons why Spain would very much allow the RN the use of the Canaries but you have to play the child and add the word possession.

"I don't think Franco will agree to British possession of their colonies"

You just bring every post down don't you? yet another example of a thoroughly dishonest debating style.[/quote]

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Lemay can harp on all he wants about the size and state of the Spanish army. But the fact is that by the Germans own calculations, even a Spain friendly scenario - and with everything going smoothly - would mean this operation taking almost as long it took the Germans to beat France.

Six weeks.

warspite1

Sorry why have you just said six weeks? Yes, six weeks and?

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: warspite1

The Germans have a narrow front to attack from with no diversion of Spanish force elsewhere. Everything would depend on how long the Spanish could hold the Germans up in the hills and mountains along the border, how much damage they could do to the rail line and roads (destroying bridges and collapsing tunnels) and thus give Spain time to mobilise fully. Much too depends on the response from the British. Do they know how vulnerable the German supply line is in on the border?

Strategic surprise trumps much of that. The tiny Spanish army is in a peacetime deployment - located all over the country.

warspite1

Nope, wrong on all counts, next.

Wow - it's great fun writing pithy one liners that simply say I'm right isn't it?[/quote]

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Take North Africa: The distance from Tripoli to El Alamein was 1781 km. Axis truck convoys made the entire journey and back. Distance from San Sebastian to Gibraltar was 1130 km. So, the entire country is within road supply range if necessary.

This response is simply confused and rambling (not just this post but all posts concerning Spain).

You've just described your posts. Mine are concise. Take the above part about supply by road: The Germans don't even need the rail lines to get supply everywhere in Spain.

warspite1

Concise is fine when you make a valid point, although I'm still waiting for you to make one.

Concise is not fine when it is appropriate for you to actually put some effort into defending the scenario you have put forward and actually making a case.

So now you are raising North Africa, where the Germans lost because Rommel didn't understand logistics, and you think that its appropriate to raise this theatre in support of your logistics argument for Spain? Wow.... So you have an entire army group [:D] in Spain being supplied by road now..... My my, that's a lot of trucks the Germans have isn't it?

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Lemay can harp on all he wants about the size and state of the Spanish army. But the fact is that by the Germans own calculations, even a Spain friendly scenario - and with everything going smoothly - would mean this operation taking almost as long it took the Germans to beat France.

Six weeks.

The Germans have a narrow front to attack from with no diversion of Spanish force elsewhere. Everything would depend on how long the Spanish could hold the Germans up in the hills and mountains along the border, how much damage they could do to the rail line and roads (destroying bridges and collapsing tunnels) and thus give Spain time to mobilise fully. Much too depends on the response from the British. Do they know how vulnerable the German supply line is in on the border?

Strategic surprise trumps much of that. The tiny Spanish army is in a peacetime deployment - located all over the country.

One France fell, the Spanish Army was being deployed to the border with Occupied France. This could have been sped up when word reached the Spanish that a massive German redployment as occurring near the Spanish-Occupied French border. Some of the 60,000 plus Spaniards who joined the Maqui would have seen to that, if only to protect their relatives in Spain.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I've asked you what you were talking about and you've come up with this. Despite the disingenuous answers above, yes you have said the Germans have until 1942 - "How long will it take? They have till 1942". And you also said "The Germans will be in a rush to get things done".

You seem to have confused yourself and give the usual one line answers in response - just minimal effort every time. Well I don't have the time to keep doing your job and trying to work out what you are talking about, when you can't even be bothered to be clear yourself.

Nothing unclear about that. Of course they want the campaign done as soon as it can be. But that doesn't imply any timeframe. The Pharaoh wants his pyramid as soon as possible - but it still takes 20 years to build.

warspite1

Of course you don't attempt a timeframe - that would mean putting some effort into what you say.[/quote]

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: warspite1

So you think the British will sit there, allow Spain to be conquered and then, only when Gibraltar is attacked, will they make their move in the Canaries???? You need to think more about what you are saying - and the comment about Crete was a hoot.

I don't think Franco will agree to British possession of their colonies any more than the French allowed them into FNA. They will expect, as the French did, for them to lodge themselves on the mainland - where the war is. If they violate that, Spain would be a real danger to become an Axis ally.

warspite1

I've covered off the first part of this sentence but on reflection, and to be honest, I think the second half of the sentence is simply risible and warrants further comment. I mean I'm still laughing and I read this about half an hour ago....

So, here is the scenario (and remember, no one is talking about possession of the islands by the British despite your unsubtle and frankly disgusting attempt to put words in my mouth). The Germans have just back-stabbed their allies the Spanish by invading them, an act which - never mind the treachery itself - will lead to starvation. The Germans are now killing Spaniards, bombing civilians, offering up the usual Nazi reprisals for any offence, etc etc - in short, all the hideousness of twentieth century warfare being meted out to the Spanish population.

In response the British (with the US in the wings) are offering whole manner of rewards and as much assistance as they can provide. However they really need to be able to use the Canaries as a naval base because Gibraltar is about to be hors de combat. The use of the base not only helps the British but of course also allows some direct support for Spain.

Now, despite the fact that everyone else who has expressed an opinion sees the nonsense of your view, you maintain that the Spanish would say no to the RN. And furthermore, you think that as a result of the British offering financial and material help in return for the use of the anchorage, the Spanish will not only say no [this is too funny] but in so doing, will actually switch sides and now be BFF's with the Germans who are busy invading their country and killing their citizens......


[/quote]

[RangerJoe]

Not to mention the fact that the Germans were in no condition to contest any British/Commonwealth move into the Canaries while the Free Spanish government would regroup there. The Nationalist Navy would not contest any move there by the Allies. The only people to complain would be the Germans with their secret base . . . [:(]

Also, the Spanish Foreign Minister was an Anglophile . . . [8|]

[Buckrock]

Well, this looks like a fascinating thread. Can someone catch me up with a quick summary?

[RFalvo69]

ORIGINAL: Buckrock

Well, this looks like a fascinating thread. Can someone catch me up with a quick summary?

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69

ORIGINAL: Buckrock

Well, this looks like a fascinating thread. Can someone catch me up with a quick summary?

To put it simply, the Curtis Lemay character insists that if it is in a war game, then it is gospel according to a war game designer who wanted to make money, whether or not it is an actual occurrence. He discredits any military, historical, and/or political analysis and states that a war game designer who wants to make money is more truthful and accurate. He also uses war game maps instead of real maps for his purposes - unless it is just a general overview with arrows but no definitive map.

The individual who uses the Grand Old Lady, Warspite1, as his avatar uses factual information from various sources to disprove and discredit what Curtis Lemay spouts. The Curtis Lemay character refuses to answer the questions posed and just claims that rule 15(b) of whatever war game states something and uses that to prove his claims, if he even bothers to answer.

All this came from someone asking a question about whether or not some German equipment would have helped the Italian military and political situation during World War Two.

I will not comment on my positions since there is a bias there. [;)]

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

ORIGINAL: warspite1


warspite1

Quite. The British had plans in place to seize the Canaries in the event that Spain allied to Germany. It was that important.

In fact I think it was so important that the British would seize them regardless - even in the massively unlikely event that Germany attacked Spain and Spain wouldn't allow Britain to use the islands. The loss of Gibraltar wouldn't be great for the British - having the Canaries (and maybe the Azores) occupied by the Germans would be pretty disastrous.

warspite1

One of the reasons Franco wouldn't do a deal with Hitler was that Hitler actually expected Spain to give them one of the Canary Islands in return...... Astonishing isn't it?

Yes it is. I submit that even if Germany took the Canary Islands, holding on to them would be all but impossible.

warspite1

Assuming a Spain friendly scenario they had a plan to bring coastal batteries to the islands and I guess air support could be flown in from Spanish Sahara? I think that much would depend on who had the energy to get things done - and that was so often the Germans. The Germans would certainly be at a disadvantage, but first mover advantage may have been key.

That said, in a Spain unfriendly scenario (as per here) then I think it would be more difficult for the Germans to gain the islands in the first place, let alone hold onto them, which I agree, would be very, very difficult with both a hostile local population and a concerted effort to take them back.

Either way, the Brits, or later the Brits and the US, would take the islands if the Rock was lost. And what the Spanish thought about it wouldn't really matter.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: warspite1

What have you got wrong? Listen. I am tired of doing all the work around here. You believe you have the knowledge to be able to talk about Vichy? Well prove it. Stop asking stupid questions and set out your ideas. Here's an idea! How about you do some work and set out the circumstances of how a 'Vichy' Spain comes about? Do you think you can manage that? This isn't rocket science. You have someone stating that a 'Vichy' Spain is not going to happen. But you say it will. So, make your case. And no, making your case isn't a series of pithy one-liners, it's a reasoned, well thought out article to explain what you believe would happen to make a 'Vichy' Spain scenario possible. You can't simply say "Well France had one so I think Spain will get one too so there". That is not a reasoned argument. That is just you saying "I'm right".

Clearly, a feature of Vichy France was no German forces interior to Vichy France. If that wasn't the point of Vichy France, then why would the Germans ever have agreed to it?

I've given clear reasons why Franco would want a deal with the Germans: The Allies aren't going to expel the Germans and Italians from Spain then reestablish a fascist state after the war. Franco has no real choice but to make a deal. And, since all the Germans really want is Gibraltar, why would he be so resistant?

warspite1

So you admit you have absolutely no idea what Vichy France was about, but simply think it would be really neat if the Spanish had one because France did [&:].

And incredibly you are still thinking in terms of Franco and Hitler making deals after what has just taken place???? Did you really ask why would Franco be so resistant? Did you really say that Franco would have no choice but to make a deal???? If that were true he would have caved in when Germany threatened him wouldn't he? Hitler has threatened Franco in no uncertain terms. Do you really think Franco has any reason to believe that Hitler doesn't follow through on his threats?

NOW, TRY AND PUT YOURSELF IN THEIR SHOES. TRY AND STOP THINKING LIKE A WAR GAMER AND TRY AND THINK OF REAL LIFE - YOU KNOW, REALITY.

a) We have decided that Hitler is going to be persuaded that a Med First is the way to go
b) Hitler is now fully on board and, in line with his character, when he wants something then he wants something, and he doesn't take kindly to be told he can't have it
c) Hitler doesn't have the benefit of hindsight, he doesn't know how easy or difficult it will be to take North Africa, he has no idea about taking Turkey and the Middle East, and he doesn't know what the USSR will do and he doesn't know how tough a nut Gibraltar will be. In short he wants Spain/Gibraltar done as quickly as possible. He's delayed Barbarossa once. He will not countenance a second delay.
d) He asks Franco through an intermediary in Spain
e) He asks Franco again though an intermediary in Berlin
f) He goes to see Franco in person to get this sorted
g) His foreign minister asks Franco. Franco makes warm noises and Hitler orders preparations to begin in earnest, including the training of the units that will undertake the assault. More intelligence operations are launched with Franco's assistance. Hitler is now really keen to get this done and thinks he has Franco's buy-in but.....
h) Mussolini is asked to speak to Franco
i) Canaris asks Franco
d) - i) is largely as per history
j) Exasperated, Hitler, desperate to avoid invading his nominal ally, but tired of the prevarication, threatens Franco to make him see reason. Hitler's had a really rubbish summer since the fall of France and time is starting to slip away. His threat to Franco is unambiguous....
k) Hitler, by now in the sort of mood he was in after someone gave him the news about the coup in Yugoslavia, and with any reticence or reluctance to attack Spain overtaken by sheer anger and frustration, gives the order to invade. He orders the bombing of Madrid and calls it Operation Retribution (he will have to come up with another name now for bombing Belgrade or maybe just call that Retribution II [;)])
l) The Germans begin the attack and take some losses, but generally start to gain ground. Spanish resistance can't last forever and Franco does what?
m) Franco now surrenders. Really? After standing up to Hitler - even when directly threatened, he now simply throws in the towel????
n) But let's go with that nonsense for a minute. You actually think Hitler, having been pushed down a path of invasion that has done his credibility with his axis and potentially axis countries no good whatsoever, that has cost him time and losses, is just going to roll his eyes and say yeah sure Franco, me ol' mucker, no problem?
o) Franco is strung up from the nearest lamp post and Hitler gets his own puppet to take over. Hitler's view of Spain and the Spanish is now set in stone and he will never forgive them.
And that's from Hitler's side.
p) All this assumes that Franco isn't overthrown as soon as he suggests a surrender.
q) Franco has refused all attempts at a strategy that will see Spain join with Germany. He has stared Hitler down and how many have done that to date?
r) Then, having done all that and gone to war with the treacherous, back-stabbing invaders, he changes his mind after just a few days or so of fighting?
s) He and everyone is Spain will now know that the Germans can't be trusted, if they make peace Spain will simply be another insignificant pawn on Germany's chessboard, but with the added bonus that, having joined the Axis, the country is now going to suffer from famine and it will have no oil.
t) You really expect Franco to surrender to the Germans after what Hitler has done to him and forced upon his country?
u) Having made such a decision Franco is a dead man walking - he will either be murdered by Spanish patriots within the government who have no wish to have anything to do with Germany or a surrender, or if he survives, he will be hung by Hitler.
v) In other words there would not be a cat in hell's chance of him even considering surrendering


And no, I'm not going to do your work for you. I told you to put something sensible together if you want to propose a scenario where a 'Vichy' Spain comes about. I'm not going to answer any of your questions as a means of you getting out of doing your homework. You want to make that case, then YOU make it and stop being lazy.

[Buckrock]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69

ORIGINAL: Buckrock

Well, this looks like a fascinating thread. Can someone catch me up with a quick summary?

To put it simply, the Curtis Lemay character insists that if it is in a war game, then it is gospel according to a war game designer who wanted to make money, whether or not it is an actual occurrence. He discredits any military, historical, and/or political analysis and states that a war game designer who wants to make money is more truthful and accurate. He also uses war game maps instead of real maps for his purposes - unless it is just a general overview with arrows but no definitive map.

The individual who uses the Grand Old Lady, Warspite1, as his avatar uses factual information from various sources to disprove and discredit what Curtis Lemay spouts. The Curtis Lemay character refuses to answer the questions posed and just claims that rule 15(b) of whatever war game states something and uses that to prove his claims, if he even bothers to answer.

All this came from someone asking a question about whether or not some German equipment would have helped the Italian military and political situation during World War Two.

I will not comment on my positions since there is a bias there. [;)]

Thanks RangerJoe and RFalvo69, that pretty much sums up what I'd seen going back almost 10 pages.