ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
ORIGINAL: warspite1
So you admit you have absolutely no idea what Vichy France was about, but simply think it would be really neat if the Spanish had one because France did [&:].
No. I think the reason for Vichy was to keep an enclave in France that wasn't under German occupation. Nothing else makes sense. I repeat: If that wasn't the reason, why would the Germans have ever agreed to stay out of that enclave?????
And, again, I don't see Franco having any choice but to make a deal if he doesn't want Spain handed over to the Republicans.
And incredibly you are still thinking in terms of Franco and Hitler making deals after what has just taken place???? Did you really ask why would Franco be so resistant? Did you really say that Franco would have no choice but to make a deal???? If that were true he would have caved in when Germany threatened him wouldn't he? Hitler has threatened Franco in no uncertain terms. Do you really think Franco has any reason to believe that Hitler doesn't follow through on his threats?
I mean he would make a deal
after the invasion and conquest. What other choice would he have that leaves him in control of Spain in the future?
NOW, TRY AND PUT YOURSELF IN THEIR SHOES. TRY AND STOP THINKING LIKE A WAR GAMER AND TRY AND THINK OF REAL LIFE - YOU KNOW, REALITY.
Wargames are a supporting factor in my argument, not the only factor. The above is a slur, which your posts are full of. You shame yourself. Stick to the facts and stop making personal comments!!!
a) We have decided that Hitler is going to be persuaded that a Med First is the way to go
Right. And this changes his plans from history. He now knows that he wants Gibraltar if Italy joins the war - even to the point of conquering Spain. That moves negotiations up in his priorities. They will begin ASAP - long before the France operation. Furthermore, he will set a date beyond which negotiations will cease. The appropriate point for that is the instant the invasion force is ready. At that point, either Spain is on board, or invaded.
b) Hitler is now fully on board and, in line with his character, when he wants something then he wants something, and he doesn't take kindly to be told he can't have it
c) Hitler doesn't have the benefit of hindsight, he doesn't know how easy or difficult it will be to take North Africa, he has no idea about taking Turkey and the Middle East, and he doesn't know what the USSR will do and he doesn't know how tough a nut Gibraltar will be. In short he wants Spain/Gibraltar done as quickly as possible. He's delayed Barbarossa once. He will not countenance a second delay.
This plan assumes the Germans conclude that a cross-channel invasion is not feasible. That's all that's necessary to adopt a Med Strategy. It's not an unreasonable assumption.
d) He asks Franco through an intermediary in Spain
e) He asks Franco again though an intermediary in Berlin
f) He goes to see Franco in person to get this sorted
g) His foreign minister asks Franco. Franco makes warm noises and Hitler orders preparations to begin in earnest, including the training of the units that will undertake the assault. More intelligence operations are launched with Franco's assistance. Hitler is now really keen to get this done and thinks he has Franco's buy-in but.....
h) Mussolini is asked to speak to Franco
i) Canaris asks Franco
d) - i) is largely as per history
j) Exasperated, Hitler, desperate to avoid invading his nominal ally, but tired of the prevarication, threatens Franco to make him see reason. Hitler's had a really rubbish summer since the fall of France and time is starting to slip away. His threat to Franco is unambiguous....
k) Hitler, by now in the sort of mood he was in after someone gave him the news about the coup in Yugoslavia, and with any reticence or reluctance to attack Spain overtaken by sheer anger and frustration, gives the order to invade. He orders the bombing of Madrid and calls it Operation Retribution (he will have to come up with another name now for bombing Belgrade or maybe just call that Retribution II [;)])
Invasion on the deadline - sometime in July.
l) The Germans begin the attack and take some losses, but generally start to gain ground. Spanish resistance can't last forever and Franco does what?
m) Franco now surrenders. Really? After standing up to Hitler - even when directly threatened, he now simply throws in the towel????
Again, eventually Spain will be conquered. At that point, Franco will be ripe for a deal - since he has no place to turn.
n) But let's go with that nonsense for a minute. You actually think Hitler, having been pushed down a path of invasion that has done his credibility with his axis and potentially axis countries no good whatsoever, that has cost him time and losses, is just going to roll his eyes and say yeah sure Franco, me ol' mucker, no problem?
If it gets a Vichy Spain, of course!
p) All this assumes that Franco isn't overthrown as soon as he suggests a surrender.
Once Spain is conquered, why would a very favorable deal cause that reaction? Especially from his fascist cronies?
; Julia Child