The question to ask about The Italians

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: warspite1

That's like claiming victory because your team was leading at half-time and then got whipped in the second half. Rommel's problem was his supply lines. Whether he could have won ultimately is debatable, not because he didn't have the tactical ability, but because he didn't have the supply. But you are holding the length of supply line in North Africa as your 'proof' about Spain.....

I'm not claiming they achieved victory in North Africa. I'm claiming they had enough supply to take Tobruk. That does indeed prove that trucks can successfully supply the forces in Spain over a distance as long as from Tripoli to Tobruk.

Supplies did not capture Tobruk, troops did. What were the state of the defenses when the Germans liberated Tobruk?

The German Armee in France mostly had horses for transport. How fast are those in the mountains and hills? How about the fodder and water?

The German Armee units in North Afrika did not need that many supplies compared to what as needed for Spain. Where would those supplies come from? It would also have been a different type of warfare.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69

I guess that the point, for anyone involved here, is: "What is your endgame on this thread?" If the answer is "To have someone say 'You know? I thought about what you wrote and I think that you are actually right!'" then I have a leaning tower for sale. [8|]

I think we've had a pretty good discussion on supply lines, regardless of all the other garbage.

warspite1

This says much. You think its been a good debate about supply? Well let's see what you brought to the party:

- You've got your facts about rail supply totally and utterly wrong because you used a wiki article on 21st century US rail roads to 'prove' what the war-ravaged Spanish rail system in 1940 could provide and concluded that the rail system could handle all the German requirements and more....

- Having had it proved by the Germans own numbers, that this was complete nonsense, you then sought to 'prove' the supply of an entire army group in Spain by truck is not a problem, and you evidenced this by showing that Rommel took Tobruk (which you appear totally fixated upon for some unknown reason) and his largely understrength force (about an army in size) got its supply from trucks and they like, really travelled a long way and everything ......

- In addition you have effectively rubbished the professional supply officers of the German army who planned Felix, as a bunch of amateurs (you've written off and dismissed just about everything they've said about going to war - even with Spain as an ally). As an example their concerns about the state of the roads for the 1,200kn march were "barely adequate; narrow, winding and laid through passes 2,000 metres high, where ice and fog would present difficulties. Wagner reckoned with major demands on drivers and equipment (particularly engines, tyres and brakes)..."

But you know better apparently and said:

See the physical map of Spain I attached. Overlay it with the Spanish path shown and you'll see that the mountainous regions are bypassed. There are hills, but no mountains. The mountains are not continuous across Spain, only in spots. So it is easy for supply columns to bypass them.

What did those stoopid German officers who surveyed the ground know anyway? If only they had access to a google map.....

- You also effectively state the US army team that wrote a study of the Balkan Campaign are a bunch of incompetents who don't have the skills you do in being able to do a google map search [8|] and you've 'proved' supply was possible from Athens because:

a) you've produced maps with a lot of arrows of German forces heading south.....
b) you've produced modern day maps showing roads between Athens and Albania.

But as ever, in your simplistic and myopic view, you've given no consideration to the distance from Athens to Albania (compared to Salonika to Albania) and whether supply considerations could also have been affected by availability of trucks or rail lines. Do you know the Greek logistical situation in 1940? Has that even crossed your mind? There were 14 divisions of the 1st Greek Army to supply. That is a lot of provisions daily. But you see that sort of detail is just unimportant to you. So long as you prove there was a road between Athens and Albania in 2020 then all other considerations - including the conclusions of the US Army - are simply not worth considering.



Some parts of the debate have been good though and I've certainly learnt a lot about the German plans for Felix which I didn't know were anywhere near as developed as they were, so that's been really useful to know. It's also been good to look afresh at the politics involved and the positions of the key players. Fascinating time of the war - so important for its eventual outcome.

[UP844]

Hello folks, my PC had a streak of Panther-like reliability [:D] and broke down twice in two weeks, requiring an extended stay in the workshop [:o].

My two (euro)cents about supply:

1) most of the current European road network (especially highways) simply did not exist in the 1940s. Only major roads (and not even all of them) had all-weather (paved) surfaces (see the Italian campaign, 1943-45).

For instance, Genoa, my home town and the primary port for the industrial northern Italy, in the 1940s had two roads crossing the Appenines to the Po Valley: an older one, not paved, with 6.7% grades and 270° turns and a brand-new highway, built in the 1930s for the increasing truck traffic from the port. The latter is somewhat straighter and has lesser grades, but sports many 60 KPH (35 MPH) limits and several tight 90° turns. On the other hand, given the technology of those times (very limited use of reinforced concrete), building long tunnels and high viaducts was nearly impossible.

2) some of the supplies landing in Tripoli, Bengasi or Tobruk were brought near the front by means of small coastal convoys

EDIT: A link to an interesting document containing information about the conditions of the Spanish road network in 1940. In 1946, the Ministry of Public Works estimated 1,400,000 tons of asphalt were required to repair paved roads and to paved the unpaved ones, but only 40,000 tons (2.8%) were available.

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... 1900-_2010

[Aurelian]

If we're talking about Africa, then there is SPI's Campaign for North Africa
https://www.spigames.net/PDFv2/CampaignNorthAfrica.pdf scroll down to the logistics game rules. This is the game that had rules that stated the Italians needed extra water to make pasta.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I am not sure if you believe what you are writing or just attention seeking. Genuinely, your comments are becoming so bizarre the more this goes on.

a) where is the evidence that Britain were going to do that? Perhaps you think they possessed Iceland? or Crete?
b) how many territories were possessed by Britain, France, America as they came back at the Germans in WWII?
c) Every post you just make yourself look more and more 'limited' in your thinking, in your knowledge, in your analysis. So with 800 German aircraft in southern France, if Gibraltar is not going to be a viable port, why do you think Corunna or Cadiz or anywhere else on mainland Spain is going to be? I mean do you EVER bother to think anything through?

I've not said that they were going to incorporate them into their national territories. But they won't get out if the Spanish demand it. That's what matters.

Those planes were in France as well. The British still had to be on the mainland. They were not given access to FNA.

warspite1

You said the British were going to possess the islands. But now you play word games with possession and incorporation???? What is the difference?

Here's some of your quotes to help you:

They would possess them. And good luck to the Spanish getting them out.

What is that possession or 'incorporation'?

I don't think Franco will agree to British possession of their colonies

And the British are taking possession of the Canaries, as I've made clear elsewhere. If the Spanish can't get them to leave, that's possession.

.... or is that incorporation????

But regardless of the infantile word games, why would the Spanish demand the Royal Navy leave anyway? They will be happy for the Royal Navy to leave once the war is won - because that means Spain is no longer occupied by the Germans. In the absence of Gibraltar the Royal Navy need the Canaries.

No idea what you are talking about the British being on the mainland. But I'm sure it means something to you, but if you mean British troops on the mainland (and that's not a likely scenario) wouldn't that mean possession so Franco won't let them in anyway? [:D]

I still have no idea why you keep bringing French North Africa into the conversation.

warspite1

Well? Do I get the courtesy of a response or not?

[Piteas]

Traveling in Spain was hell in 1940. Those were my parents' childhood years and they always told me that going from Corunna to Madrid was like Operation Barbarossa: broken bridges, poorly paved or dirt roads, cut train tracks ... a country after three years of civil war .

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Piteas

Traveling in Spain was hell in 1940. Those were my parents' childhood years and they always told me that going from Corunna to Madrid was like Operation Barbarossa: broken bridges, poorly paved or dirt roads, cut train tracks ... a country after three years of civil war .

warspite1

That's a shame, if they'd known they could have asked Curtis Lemay for directions - he'd have found a route that by passed all the problems....

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Piteas

Traveling in Spain was hell in 1940. Those were my parents' childhood years and they always told me that going from Corunna to Madrid was like Operation Barbarossa: broken bridges, poorly paved or dirt roads, cut train tracks ... a country after three years of civil war .

warspite1

That's a shame, if they'd known they could have asked Curtis Lemay for directions - he'd have found a route that by passed all the problems....

+1 [&o]

Think of what trucks look like stuck in the mud of a wet dirt road - oh wait, we don't have to. There are plenty pictures of those from the USSR! Some of those "paved" roads were clinker roads which can cause their own problems:

https://www.dmr.nd.gov/ndgs/documents/n ... linker.pdf

Of course, this type of clinker might be better but not as a road surface! [X(]

https://createbakemake.com/4-ingredient ... ocky-road/

[rico21]

Does anyone know that the German preferred means of military transport is the train?

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: rico21

Does anyone know that the German preferred means of military transport is the train?

At the time, the Spanish railroad system was damaged. It did not directly link from France to Spain plus it was a different gauge. A little difficult to utilize. [8|]

But a certain someone might think otherwise! [:-]

[IslandInland]

Dejalo ser.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q5ZuTsrZuk

Dejalo ser, dejalo ser.

[RangerJoe]

Dejalo ser

ORIGINAL: IslandInland

Dejalo ser.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q5ZuTsrZuk

Dejalo ser, dejalo ser.

Warum?

[warspite1]

Okay, no point flogging a dead horse so I'll give it one more try to see if there is any interest out there.


I will jot down a Med First counterfactual and would welcome thoughts and insights so that we can come to a consensus on what we think may have been possible (recognising that our knowledge is necessarily limited (we are not historians!) but that, as war gamers with a keen interest in what we play, many of us will have at least some knowledge to impart).

I'll make a start on it and see what, if any, interest it attracts.

The essentials will be:

- Hitler is persuaded to employ a Mediterranean-First strategy to weaken the British (or ideally get them to surrender) before an assault on the Soviet Union is made in the Summer of 1942.

- This plan will involve the taking of Gibraltar and Hitler will be so persuaded by the plan, that he will - as a last resort - even be prepared to invade Spain

- A second prong of this scenario is a declaration of war against Turkey (if she can't be brought into the Axis camp) and thus a pincer move to take Egypt from the west and north.

- Moving Hitler's thinking in this way is a pretty big alteration to reality so I think we need to sensible in terms of trying to ensure we keep other key players in the scenario acting in line with their character. This doesn't mean everyone is hidebound to do what they did in WWII obviously - everyone can react to changing circumstance - but we just need to be sensible.

Hopefully this will be a bit of fun and I would like to think that there are enough war gamers in our community with WWII knowledge that would be happy to join in and give their 2 cents, or GBP 0.02 or Euro 0.02. Probably need 4-5 minimum contributors to make it viable. Who knows? Someone might even make a war game from it [;)]

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So the very first question we need to have a consensus on is when, realistically, Hitler would have decided a Med strategy is the way to go.

My view is that such a strategy should not be considered until June - and this would have been after the armistice is signed. I say this for three main reasons:

1. Going for any strategy - be it a Med strategy or a Soviet strategy or a Sea Lion strategy - is totally superfluous to Hitler's thinking until such time as Poland and France are defeated. After all, who - least of all Hitler - is going to imagine how the war will pan out in September 1939.

2. Only once Hitler knows Mussolini has joined the war, does the Med even come onto anyone's radar.

3. During May and June 1940 Hitler has his hands full trying to beat France, Britain and their Allies. To suggest that at this time Hitler is going to be diverted from this major operation (Case Yellow) to start thinking earnestly about Spain, and having in-depth conversations with Mussolini and Franco, while France has yet to be resolved, just seems highly unlikely.

Why is this important and the place to start? Well for two reasons:

a) it governs how quickly, after France, an attack on Spain would take place - and that is really important in terms of the knock-on effect elsewhere, the preparedness of the various belligerents etc

b) it also governs what Hitler may or may not have ordered during his time of indecision after France surrenders.

So that's my thoughts, but what do others think? So when, realistically, do we think Hitler would have had his light-bulb moment? To be clear this is simply when Hitler decides that a Med First solution is to be planned and not when the planning is finalised - that comes next....

[Aurelian]

How soon could it happen, since the panzer units would have to rest/refit? In 1940 and for quite some time after, tank transporters didn't exist, so the panzers went everywhere on their own.

British counter moves? Reinforce the Rock, harass that long coastline with the RN and RAF.

The US could certainly aid Spain. Maybe even get in the war.

Russia..... Stalin gets more time to get his military straightened out. He was shocked that France fell so quickly, as he thought Hitler would be tied up there. But now that they're tied up in Spain, he gets the time he needed.

The French Resistance meanwhile could do their thing to the rail lines leading to the Spanish border.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I just think you are still looking at this as a simple wargame. No logistics required. The whole point of this scenario from a German perspective is that it will put them in a better position than they were in in June 1941 historically. If not then its no good. The better start position in Turkey (if indeed that is achievable) will be squandered it they don't manage this properly.

And if they possess Gibraltar, Suez, and the Turkish border with the Russians they will be in a much better position.

The whole thing comes down to just how tough the Spanish and Turkish operations are going to be. You're trying to build them up into supermen. They aren't.

The rate you have the German army going through supply trucks, oil and ammunition just to take Spain (the shell requirements for Gibraltar will be prodigious), will take some time to build back up. And you need to follow your own arguments. You said that the German armies sitting around in northern France will give up their trucks to the army group in Spain. But now you say that the Germans have so many troops (what are they all front line units?) they can all afford to be used at the same time. Again, you seem to think so simply and just don't follow your own arguments. So yes, despite what you say, a timetable is incredibly important here.

The Spanish army is so small and of such low quality, destroying it can't amount to much of a supply drain. There has to be a permanent garrison in France regardless of what happens anywhere else. But they're not going to be doing much of anything except sitting on the coast. They won't miss some borrowed trucks.

And you talk about the army and seem to have totally forgotten the air force. How big was the Luftwaffe in 1940? You've got 800 aircraft in Spain alone (and that is for a Spain friendly scenario) but you seem to think they can just hang around in that theatre until 1942.....

There would be an initial Luftwaffe presence just to eliminate the Spanish AF. After than, they only need an amount sufficient to handle the tiny Spanish army. Those 800 planes are your figure for Gibraltar only. They will only be needed upon the assault on Gibraltar.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

AARRRGGHHHH!!!!! But this comes right back to the heart of the scenario and what was said almost from the outset. If you have everyone on the Axis side acting with hindsight and all the Allies unable to react to what is going on, then yes, you can make a case for a German victory. But what the hell is the point of that? Where is the fun, the challenge in that?

Right let's re-do WWII but the British start the war with 20 divisions and the French replace Gamelin with someone who is not fighting WWI and has given the French army an offensive doctrine. Right, that's the war over in 1939. Wow that was interesting wasn't it........

The hypothetical only has to consider alternatives that could be induced by the hypothetical. Does Germany adopting a Med Strategy induce the British to expand their army? How, when they wouldn't even know about it? Does it illuminate the French about Blitzkrieg? How? Again, they don't even know about it.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

This nonsense has got to stop Lemay. You are totally and utterly out of your depth here. Just clueless.

Vichy allowed the Germans the use of airbases in Syria. That was collaboration which was against their neutral status. But you think Vichy was an Axis ally????? Have a look at the US relationship with Vichy. You think they would have that relationship with an Axis ally after 10th December 1941?

Spain gave a degree of repair facilities and safe haven to u-boats - that was collaboration, against their mom-belligerent status - but you think they were German Allies????? Have a look at the US relationship with Spain and the supplies - especially food they gave to save them from famine. Again, you think the US saw them as Axis allies?

Sweden gave the Germans access to Swedish territory to allow troop movement - that was collaboration against their neutral status - you think Sweden was a German ally????

Some countries found themselves in situations that were highly uncomfortable - not wanting to be invaded and so needing to keep Germany sweet, but at the same time, not wanting to cheese the Allies off. They walked a difficult path. As a result there were things done by all countries caught in this situation. THAT DOES NOT MAKE THEM AXIS ALLIES. To suggest otherwise just shows a total lack of understanding and you are really embarrassing yourself here. Like with the trade embargoes and Japan, you don't even know your own country's WWII history.

At no point have I said that Vichy France was an Axis belligerent. A collaborator is an ally (small "a"). Stop twisting my words.

[RangerJoe]

Hitler might even ask his General Staff for ideas that if Case Yellow were to be successful and France is occupied, then what should happen? Then there would be a lot of low level staff work done. Those low level staff plans (research done by lower level staffer with direction from higher level staffers) would then later be fleshed out along with details such as Division X does this while Division Y does that. Contingency plans for targets if Italy, Spain, the Balkan countries, and others were to join the axis as either active members or even just assisting or looking the other way.

This would then include the Med but possibly even the North Atlantic although after the Norwegian campaign there would be little naval support.

One option for the Med even before Italy joins the war would be a plan to capture Gibraltar but it would require Italian assistance before the fall of France. Vichy France or Spain could also work after the fall of France but there would be more problems there.

Plans for the capture of Suez could be done with Italian help which would then coincide Italy entering the war.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe




I don't know where you get those driving times from. The military travels slow unless it is returning from an FTX - especially for the Class VI items. But in Spain you have to slow down for those hills and mountains plus the tight curves - remember that any grade above 7% is an obstacle. The drivers and crew need rest, sustenance, plus the vehicles need fuel and maintenance. A lot of vehicles will break down, what happens with those? You can't leave them alone. Those convoys need escorts, so those members and vehicles also need to be taken care of.

The web site provided the times. I only wanted the distances. The times are irrelevant. And all the above was true in the Desert as well - they still took Tobruk.

warspite1

Speaking of irrelevant - so is the distance and so is the taking of Tobruk.

Wrong on both. The distance shows that trucks can project supply further than Tripoli to Tobruk (further than any distance in Spain). Taking Tobruk shows that that supply was sufficient to take Tobruk from the Commonwealth (vastly superior to the Spaniards).

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: warspite1


warspite1

Okay so you are saying the same circumstances apply to Romania and Spain because they were conquered (although in Spain's case that hasn't happened, but will be, so that's by the by). And that's it........ So to be clear, there are no other considerations that need to be taken into account when trying to determine what Spain's response would have been to an invasion by Germany? Really? You genuinely don't understand that Spain and Romania's position in 1940 and 1944 are so very different on so many levels?

I'm saying the circumstance of losing thousands to and being invaded and conquered by - then switching to that other side is the same.

warspite1

Yes I know WHAT you are saying. I have no idea why you would think its appropriate. I mean in World War II Britain and Japan were in exactly the same circumstances weren't they. They were both islands and both had an empire. There. Exactly the same [8|]

Clearly, these examples show that taking losses and being invaded and conquered is no impediment to joining the conquering side.

So, German conquest of Spain would not be an impediment to making a deal with the Axis. And, since Franco has no where else to turn, why wouldn't he make that deal?