Conventional War with the PRC?

[pbrowne]

I think what some of this discussion has perhaps overlooked (but touched on by guanotwozero), is the CCP and it's assumption of an inherited 'Mandate of Heaven'. Above all, the CCP cannot lose face domestically. As time goes on, more mainland Chinese (Chinese) people will question the CCP's assumed right to rule. The days of the Chinese people being insulated from the realities of the world up to and during the Mao era before Détente in 1972, despite the increasingly frantic efforts of the CCP and Xi, will eventually disappear. This is the great fear of the CCP; losing it's tenacious grip on legitimacy. So the question is would a domestically insecure CCP feel comfortable backing down past a certain point?

Therefore it could be argued, that no slight on the PRC, and therefore the CCP, could be tolerated. For the last two decades, the CCP's legitimacy has been supported by rising standards of living. International travel by Chinese, especially holidays and buying into international real estate, has proliferated. Similarly, the number of Chinese students attending overseas universities has risen dramatically, to the point where here in Australia, universities having relied on international students, predominately from the PRC, for a large part of their income are facing financial walls with Australian borders closed due to COVID. Chinese are becoming accustomed to indulgences that rising prosperity brings, and the CCP knows this. Take that away, and the CCP are in trouble.

IMO, the PRC would have to regard any economic blockade as a declaration of war. As history shows, existential threats (real or propaganda induced) tend to promote right wing and nationalistic sentiments. Just what the CCP needs.

There is also the West's reliance on PRC manufactured products. Any embargo on PRC goods would have profound implications for the global economy. The COVID crisis has made us all aware of domestic manufacture and supply chain failings...just think face masks.

[cristianwj]

Dear armchair generals, the disscuss above has nothing relationship with CMO.
Too many political debate will ruin this game, don't you think so?
It's true that there is relationship between politics and war, but I think it's just a background.
If some replies is OK or permitted by this forum, I hava a bunch of ideas to make some interesting scenarios.

[pbrowne]

ORIGINAL: cristianwj

Dear armchair generals, the disscuss above has nothing relationship with CMO.
Too many political debate will ruin this game, don't you think so?
It's true that there is relationship between politics and war, but I think it's just a background.
If some replies is OK or permitted by this forum, I hava a bunch of ideas to make some interesting scenarios.

I think this thread is about how a conventional war, or some intervention whether it is an embargo or blockade or something else, might form the background of a realistic CMO scenario on the China/Taiwan situation.

Maybe I'm wrong on that assumption.

Nevertheless, I think any fictional CMO scenario needs to be realistic and plausible, at least for the suspension of disbelief. Any military or other intervention always has to have it's roots in the political situation, especially at the strategic level, as the political situation determines the level of intervention and it's constituents.

I for one would love to hear your ideas for scenarios, especially on ones from the Chinese perspective. I think that would be truly great. [:)]

[Zhaoo_Four]

ORIGINAL: pbrowne
I think what some of this discussion has perhaps overlooked (but touched on by guanotwozero), is the CCP and it's assumption of an inherited 'Mandate of Heaven'. Above all, the CCP cannot lose face domestically. As time goes on, more mainland Chinese (Chinese) people will question the CCP's assumed right to rule. The days of the Chinese people being insulated from the realities of the world up to and during the Mao era before Détente in 1972, despite the increasingly frantic efforts of the CCP and Xi, will eventually disappear. This is the great fear of the CCP; losing it's tenacious grip on legitimacy. So the question is would a domestically insecure CCP feel comfortable backing down past a certain point?

Therefore it could be argued, that no slight on the PRC, and therefore the CCP, could be tolerated. For the last two decades, the CCP's legitimacy has been supported by rising standards of living. International travel by Chinese, especially holidays and buying into international real estate, has proliferated. Similarly, the number of Chinese students attending overseas universities has risen dramatically, to the point where here in Australia, universities having relied on international students, predominately from the PRC, for a large part of their income are facing financial walls with Australian borders closed due to COVID. Chinese are becoming accustomed to indulgences that rising prosperity brings, and the CCP knows this. Take that away, and the CCP are in trouble.

IMO, the PRC would have to regard any economic blockade as a declaration of war. As history shows, existential threats (real or propaganda induced) tend to promote right wing and nationalistic sentiments. Just what the CCP needs.

There is also the West's reliance on PRC manufactured products. Any embargo on PRC goods would have profound implications for the global economy. The COVID crisis has made us all aware of domestic manufacture and supply chain failings...just think face masks.

Why not rethink the White English expanded from Britain to North America, Australia? Read true history.
IMHO,such the freak political paranoia to blockade China like pirate action just regard as what your forefather did.
Pirate DNA, conspicuously, were inherited by you.
The reason why you can discuss like the civilized manner? cuz your forefathers robbed money, then bought the Tail Coat.
And the Tail Coat with the original sin stands on the "civilized" highland to blame someone was dangerous and, in its real ourpose, it try to plunder a new round of treasure, lands and labbor.
How a freaky hypocrisy!
God bless you for your Mandate of Heaven. God bless you for your right of robbery.

------------------------
Weakness and ignorance are not barriers to survival, but arrogance is.

[pbrowne]

ORIGINAL: Zhaoo_Four

Why not rethink the White English expanded from Britain to North America, Australia? Read true history.
IMHO,such the freak political paranoia to blockade China like pirate action just regard as what your forefather did.
Pirate DNA, conspicuously, were inherited by you.
The reason why you can discuss like the civilized manner? cuz your forefathers robbed money, then bought the Tail Coat.
And the Tail Coat with the original sin stands on the "civilized" highland to blame someone was dangerous and, in its real ourpose, it try to plunder a new round of treasure, lands and labbor.
How a freaky hypocrisy!
God bless you for your Mandate of Heaven. God bless you for your right of robbery.

------------------------
Weakness and ignorance are not barriers to survival, but arrogance is.

I am truly sorry if you are offended by my post. I sincerely apologise if that is the case, as no offense was intended.

I think I was just stating common knowledge and facts, with no intended bias. BTW, the Chinese Mandate of Heaven was taught in imperial China to justify divine rule, not unlike as you stated, the ideology of manifest destiny espoused by Great Britain and the USA to expand their empires.

Again, I think the whole concept of CMO is the test scenarios, especially from multiple perspectives. So, I would love to play out some different scenarios from the perspective of sides other than NATO and similar 'white' coalitions.[:)]

[pathfinderdsdw]

It is unrealistic to imagine a conventional war with China, a giant a hundred times more powerful than Vietnam.
Economic sanctions is difficult to fully defeated him, after all, he's area and the land is too large, my advice is don't always use the fascist thinking to consider how to defeat, I might be pessimistic or too pacifist, but had to admit, choose confrontation with China is a stupid idea., Choosing to confront China is a stupid idea. The mobilized war with China will cause the world to decline for many years. I don’t intend to contribute to my hapiness life, why not consider peaceful competition with China in cultural and economic terms.

[pbrowne]

BTW, I do have pirate DNA - as far back as the Vikings, and more recently in Irish whiskey smugglers. I'm also a direct descendant of a convict [8|]

Proud Pirate Pete

[alexzhz]

It's a pity that this discussion is getting off the topic gradually, and some of the comments are filled with inconceivable political bias, especially pbrowne's reply.

Several years ago I thought all players belonged to one group which is called "CMO/CMANO players", but years after I realized that's not true, this game is so remarkable that all the players interested in politics and military affairs in real world are interested in it, and the players are heavily divided into different countries and standpoints, they might be alliance or enemy for now, and they will be alliance or enemy in future, therefore, in this forum, it's necessary to make any of the similar discussions friendly and reasonable. I don't want to see any flame wars here, though someone had actually lighted it up already. It's so ridiculous to discuss how to take down the CCP in a game forum.

For a long time I've noticed that people in western countries didn't really understand the modern China and its national governance mode, not because I'm completely indoctrinated by CCP, but because they were indoctrinated by their media. Their opinions to CCP(CPC indeed) are partially wrong, and I know it's hard to make their mind which had been brainwashed for almost 50 years changed in 1-2 hours, so there won't be a debate today.

It seems the friendship between Chinese players and western players is gone, or it never existed before. I’m so sorry but we can't keep calm and discuss a war plan on how to blockade China.

Just a remind, many Chinese players are concerned with this topic, and they will not absent in similar topics.

[alexzhz]

No matter you agree or not, China will continue its growing by releasing its endogenous driving forces. The urbanization rate is to rise from 60% to 70% in the coming 10 years, which means almost 0.2 billion workers is entering big cities, enlarging the consumer market remarkably, and the consumption% in GDP rised from 47% to 80% in the past 6 years.
What if the household registration system removed in the near future?
What if the highly educated labor increased dramatically in rural area?
China has much to do with its reform of the economic system, and the blockade will never defeat the biggest economic giant(after 2035）, but slow down the world economic growth.
BTW, the latest figure shows US goods trade deficit with China reaches its widest point since the Sino-US trade war. Always remember that trading comes from comparative advantages, not guns and missiles.

[Zhaoo_Four]

ORIGINAL: pbrowne
BTW, I do have pirate DNA - as far back as the Vikings, and more recently in Irish whiskey smugglers. I'm also a direct descendant of a convict

Manners maketh man. Thank you still have a rational mind. But I need correct one of your opinion.

China and CCP confirmly won't to be a global impire. It is widely noted that globalization is an irreversible wave to the world. Any imperialistic vain hope cannot come true. In Chinese word, the globalization is a "historic wheel" come and forward.

It is a so freak idea even in Chinese internal environmet that CPC will dominating the world. Nobody believe this sort of jibber-jabber, even the communists in Chinese.

Western Media is the best brain washer. The tension and statement of "dangerous china" make more Western people accepted. Moreover, it also impacts you. And then, you just listened & followed your media command and imagined an of devil, evil big monster in the dark back side of CPC. The win of your Media!

I agree that CMO just discuss the PURE military problem even it is hypothetical. However, now, Matrix forums may commence more political discusion. That's boring and meaningless. Chinese, CPC and China smeared for no reason. If no one point out the ridiculous bias, more people will think the "dangerous China" so.

BTW, the Chinese Mandate of Heaven was taught in imperial China to justify divine rule, not unlike as you stated, the ideology of manifest destiny espoused by Great Britain and the USA to expand their empires.

I may share my view for your reference. Just my suggestion.

Western ideology is so simple:

Firstly, They think the country only one way to prosperous is to be the empire and look for a way for global domination.

Secondly, The OLD EMPIRES did what they did. Therefore, they are afraid of some NEW EMPIRES to do the same on them.

Thirdly, They believe that China must be the new RULE MAKER over the world.

Finally, They say China is dangerous to the free countries on the world.
Q.E.D

However, the reality is that US and his brothers are still the (OLD) empires, but, currently, China did nothing and even not qualify as a new empire.

Dont you heared the win-win stratgy? There are more ways to international communication country by country in peace. Not only choose to be the empire. Sadly, "white guys" dont believe that harmonious development.

Nice talking to you，G'Day.

[.Sirius]

ORIGINAL: pbrowne

BTW, I do have pirate DNA - as far back as the Vikings, and more recently in Irish whiskey smugglers. I'm also a direct descendant of a convict [8|]

Proud Pirate Pete

heh I'm 5th Generation Royal Navy so their must be some Pirate in me heh, I was out in the South China Sea in 1988 when our Helicopter was engaged by ground fire and hit from Trinton Islands in the Paracels Group whilst on a Search and Rescue Mission [8D]

https://www.helis.com/database/unit/481-HMS-Sirius/

[Zhaoo_Four]

That's an interesting history.Nice to hear that.[:D]

[.Sirius]

ORIGINAL: Zhaoo_Four

That's an interesting history.Nice to hear that.[:D]

I am retired now but I have known to give the "whole nine yards" when required

[Zhaoo_Four]

I understand the loyalty to the sailors and officers in RN.

Dont underestimate PLA's loyalty too.

The fire toward your ship or your heli showed the PLA would give the "whole nine yards" to any hostile target offending territorial waters of China.

Happy to see you nowaday, but not in the history book! [:)]

BTW, let me pull back this topic. I think the overmuch political discussions are meaningless. Whatever insane imagination of politics is just the background of the scenario. We should put more attention to deal with the military problem, but not the political stuff. Just Stop expanding the meaningless political discussion.

I think the governments of Western Country have a great institution that the civil servant/minister/secretary govern the armed force, not the officer of armed service. Because when I seen this thread, that your troops men consider the political issues are lack of the political brain and full of pure military adventure. If this sort of great institution, Civilian Control Armed Force, was vain, the Earth would be blow up by your warriors' hands.

After all, the weapon of criticism cannot replace the criticism by weapon.


"England expects that every man will do his duty." Salute to the Royal Navy!

[.Sirius]

I thankyou for those kind words

[MySoulYourBeats]

How ridiculous and aggressive that a bunch of fascists are openly planning an invasion against a nation with all the vicious strategies they can come up with! Hope you can all cherish the lives of your own soldiers instead of hoping them to die. if you want war with us, just join into the war by yourself instead of just standing there and being keyboard strategists. If you are already in the military, I will personally prey for you that there won't be too many sharks around the fleet when you have to jump into the sea. Lastly, North American slave owner, genocide, anti-human bandit, must be destroyed.

[.Sirius]

Oh my, what rattled your cage [:)], this is supposed to be a non political friendly group, I dont war monger but have fought for my country on many occasions, you will find on this forum many ex military from many countries as well as avid gamers

[thewood1]

I could have predicted this would head in this direction. But the ratio of unhinged-ness to life time post count is almost infinity here.

[.Sirius]

[:)]