The question to ask about The Italians

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Buckrock

Is this the right room for an argument?[:'(]

warspite1

No, now **** off



[:)][:D][;)]

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
....

And, I repeat, here's another example of the Germans being supplied by road for at least 500km. (And probably even further than that, since there's no telling where their rail head was at this time after blitzing through Yugoslavia just to get to Greece.

I realise there is next to no sense in responding to you (did you really need to fill up two pages with endless quotes?), but XXXI Pzr Corps and its associated formations was so wrecked by Yugoslavia/Greece it was next in action in November 1941 - it took 6 months to refit at a time when the Germans really needed every armoured formation they had to hand.

by the end of that campaign, they weren't supplied in any meaningful sense, they could just about keep an advance going against totally fragmented opposition.

but I did like your google maps, very useful to show how fast a modern car can drive on the modern road network [8D]

[Zovs]

https://youtu.be/xpAvcGcEc0k

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Zovs

https://youtu.be/xpAvcGcEc0k

51 years of enjoyment . . . [:D]

[UP844]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Here is an interesting read:

the wages of destruction

https://www.bing.com/search?q=the+wages ... FORM=QSRE8

Full text of "Tooze, Adam The Wages Of Destruction The Making And Breaking Of The Nazi Economy"

https://archive.org/stream/ToozeAdamThe ... y_djvu.txt

Thanks for reporting this book!! [&o]

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: UP844

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Here is an interesting read:

the wages of destruction

https://www.bing.com/search?q=the+wages ... FORM=QSRE8

Full text of "Tooze, Adam The Wages Of Destruction The Making And Breaking Of The Nazi Economy"

https://archive.org/stream/ToozeAdamThe ... y_djvu.txt

Thanks for reporting this book!! [&o]

You are welcome. You get to read about the economic problems with managing the Nazi German economy and why they just could not produce more.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: UP844

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Here is an interesting read:

the wages of destruction

https://www.bing.com/search?q=the+wages ... FORM=QSRE8

Full text of "Tooze, Adam The Wages Of Destruction The Making And Breaking Of The Nazi Economy"

https://archive.org/stream/ToozeAdamThe ... y_djvu.txt

Thanks for reporting this book!! [&o]

You are welcome. You get to read about the economic problems with managing the Nazi German economy and why they just could not produce more.

warspite1

+1 I will need to keep funds available for Taranto, but would like to get this too.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: UP844




Thanks for reporting this book!! [&o]

You are welcome. You get to read about the economic problems with managing the Nazi German economy and why they just could not produce more.

warspite1

+1 I will need to keep funds available for Taranto, but would like to get this too.

How about download it here:

https://ia800102.us.archive.org/14/item ... conomy.pdf

for FREE!

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: loki100

I realise there is next to no sense in responding to you (did you really need to fill up two pages with endless quotes?), but XXXI Pzr Corps and its associated formations was so wrecked by Yugoslavia/Greece it was next in action in November 1941 - it took 6 months to refit at a time when the Germans really needed every armoured formation they had to hand.

by the end of that campaign, they weren't supplied in any meaningful sense, they could just about keep an advance going against totally fragmented opposition.

warspite1

I'm interested to hear more about this. I understand German losses in Yugoslavia and Greece (Crete accepted) were light. Presumably you are talking about mechanical breakdowns and losses of machinery (I hear driving in mountains and up and down hills can be quite taxing [;)] - or so Wagner believed - but then what does he know [8|])?

I am particularly interested in this given the fighting to come in Spain in the Med-first scenario.

Thanks

[RangerJoe]

Anything above 7% grade is an obstacle, so are sharp curves. Look up pictures of how the load gets distributed as well as pictures of more modern vehicles crossing such terrain and you can easily see some of the problems from a maintenance perspective. Not to mention that all of the German trucks used were not necessarily built to military specifications.

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: UP844




Thanks for reporting this book!! [&o]

You are welcome. You get to read about the economic problems with managing the Nazi German economy and why they just could not produce more.

warspite1

+1 I will need to keep funds available for Taranto, but would like to get this too.

I have it. It is an excellent read.

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: warspite1

warspite1

So you've been arguing like a stubborn mule over something you don't understand - but moreover don't even believe - just for the sake of it???? Wow.....

So let's be completely clear. You won't believe the findings of the US Military study on how the Greek supplied their 1st Army via Salonika (a quicker, flater, shorter route), but now (after about 30 pages of nonsense about how they supplied them from Athens) you admit you don't know how the Greeks did actually supply them. But although you don't know that you are still going to insist that the US military planners don't have a clue.......????

Erm...... okay......

Let's see: It's now clear that the Germans supplied themselves (offensively) over those very same roads that you claim the Greeks couldn't have used (defensively) - even though the Greeks have a rail line part of the way, which the Germans don't have.

And, I repeat, you've taken that study out of context.

And, I repeat, here's another example of the Germans being supplied by road for at least 500km. (And probably even further than that, since there's no telling where their rail head was at this time after blitzing through Yugoslavia just to get to Greece.

Belgrade to Thessaloniki with a stop in Skopji.

But the Germans were short of trucks and had difficulties making more.

They seized them from the occupied countries. Which in it self played havoc with spare parts and maintainence.

[76mm]

I'll chip in another recommendation for Tooze's book. I sort of dreaded reading it--it sounded really heavy--but actually it was very readable, and very eye-opening. The Germans were a mess!

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: loki100

I realise there is next to no sense in responding to you (did you really need to fill up two pages with endless quotes?), but XXXI Pzr Corps and its associated formations was so wrecked by Yugoslavia/Greece it was next in action in November 1941 - it took 6 months to refit at a time when the Germans really needed every armoured formation they had to hand.

by the end of that campaign, they weren't supplied in any meaningful sense, they could just about keep an advance going against totally fragmented opposition.

warspite1

I'm interested to hear more about this. I understand German losses in Yugoslavia and Greece (Crete accepted) were light. Presumably you are talking about mechanical breakdowns and losses of machinery (I hear driving in mountains and up and down hills can be quite taxing [;)] - or so Wagner believed - but then what does he know [8|])?

I am particularly interested in this given the fighting to come in Spain in the Med-first scenario.

Thanks

yes, it was nothing to do with combat losses but all the engines and drive shafts were wrecked by the terrain and roads. So 2 Pzr divisions took no part in the main phase of Barbarossa and the formations were only allocated to the Ost Heer in late October (when they got trashed again in the second phase of Typhoon).

another instance that shows the same problem is the Soviet invasion of Manchuria. The Japanese had no AT guns that could deal with the Soviet armour (either the LL Shermans or the T34s/IS2s), a week into the campaign, the Soviets had pulled half of 6 TA out of the advance as it had basically broken down (the Shermans) and even the more robust Soviet stuff was becoming unreliable.

There is a reason why post war so many armies invested a lot in tank transporters, they found out that poor terrain quickly means you have next to no effective tanks if they have to move under their speed.

So, yep, chuck say 2 Pzr armies into Spain, and given Germany's rate of tank production they would probably have been refitted for combat sometime in late 1942.

of course I do realise this is not what is shown in Prados' old boardgame (Advanced Third Reich)

ORIGINAL: 76mm

I'll chip in another recommendation for Tooze's book. I sort of dreaded reading it--it sounded really heavy--but actually it was very readable, and very eye-opening. The Germans were a mess!

fully agree, its the sort of book that makes Economic History an interesting subject

[Buckrock]

ORIGINAL: loki100
yes, it was nothing to do with combat losses but all the engines and drive shafts were wrecked by the terrain and roads. So 2 Pzr divisions took no part in the main phase of Barbarossa and the formations were only allocated to the Ost Heer in late October (when they got trashed again in the second phase of Typhoon).

Was there a particular reference(s) which indicated to you that two of the panzer divisions used in Greece were unavailable due to maintenance needs until Oct '41?

Assuming the two panzer divisions you're referring to are the 2nd and the 5th, they did both arrive back in Germany in June from Greece with too much work to do in too little time to be considered for the opening moves of Barbarossa but both appear to have been ready by August (when 2nd was ordered to France and 5th was (IIRC) preparing for a possible move to the Med). In early Sept though, priorities had changed and both began their move to Russia to participate in operations there.

Askey's "Operation Barbarossa" seems to confirm some of the key dates, so it may be that the divisions spent no more than two months in Germany before they were ready to go and that time included divisional reorganization, re-equipping (ie Pz IIIf's replacing Pz IIIe's and Pz II's, etc) as well as any repair/maintenance/replacements after the Balkans (particularly 2nd Pz that lost much of its vehicle strength when several transports they were onboard were sunk by Brit subs in May).

Just asking because I'm curious about your statement of what appears to be an excessively long period for a division to be down for maintenance, even for Germany.[;)]

[RangerJoe]

It does not really seem that long. It takes at least one week for an armoured company to go through a quarterly maintenance cycle - and that is with more modern vehicles that have had more testing and are more robust. Thirty percent of a panzer division broke down during Anschluss with no combat. Then have it operate in combat with the steep grades and sharp curves, that is even worse on the drive train and suspension.

As far as reequiping with new tanks, those men have to be trained on those new tanks. That could have been done in France as well as other maintenance. Not all of the vehicles may have moved with the unit to France and the unit may have still been drawing equipment.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: loki100

.....of course I do realise this is not what is shown in Prados' old boardgame (Advanced Third Reich)

warspite1

Yes, you've picked the wrong game. If you want a game that simulates WWII so accurately you can base a counterfactual on it without fear of contradiction, you want that game Lemay bases his ideas on.

It's fantastically accurate....

By the by, and just to add more evidence to the fire. In the Greek campaign the atrocious road conditions took an enormous toll on the German trucks - largely as a result of tyres. Vehicle attrition rate was 35% after only two weeks of hostilities.

So this Med-first strategy will be interesting with North Africa, Spain, Greece, Yugoslavia, Turkey, and the Middle East all having to be tamed before Barbarossa. I hope the Germans had lots of spare parts.....

[RangerJoe]

Not to mention rubber. Germany had a shortage of rubber so bad that they had to build more plants to make it. One plant in Poland now make one heck of a lot of rubber . . .

[UP844]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

By the by, and just to add more evidence to the fire. In the Greek campaign the atrocious road conditions took an enormous toll on the German trucks - largely as a result of tyres. Vehicle attrition rate was 35% after only two weeks of hostilities.

I just finished reading "The Day of Battle" (no book to write home about), which mentions that 25% of the Allied vehicles in Italy in late 1943 were non-operational.

[Zorch]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Not to mention rubber. Germany had a shortage of rubber so bad that they had to build more plants to make it. One plant in Poland now make one heck of a lot of rubber . . .

So what did they use for prophylactics? [8D]